Johnny Mandel - The Dr. Larry Fischer Interview

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An Interview with Johnny Mandel, Concerning his Compositions and Arrangements for Hollywood Films, Television and Recordings

“It takes a long time to get good … I am very grateful for everything that has happened to me as a result of being in the music business. I was lucky and I enjoyed every minute of it.”

- Johnny Mandel

This interview was presented at the annual conference of the IAJE in Long Beach, CA in January of 2002. It was first published in lAJE's Jazz Research Proceedings Yearbook - Larry Fisher, Editor.

The amazing musical career of Johnny Mandel can be divided generally into two major sections. The first part was spent as a performer on trombone and bass trumpet and/or as an arranger for some of the finest groups of the big band era. These bands included those of Buddy Rich, Georgie Auld, Alvino Rey, Woody Herman, Terry Gibbs, Elliot Lawrence, Count Basie, Duke Ellington and others. The second part began as the popularity of the big bands declined. After World War II, Johnny did some arranging for the last of the major network radio programs. He then transferred those skills to television in 1950 and wrote arrangements for musical segments on "Your Show of Shows" staring Sid Caesar and Imogene Coca, which also featured Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks. He wrote arrangements for Las Vegas casino shows, which included the top vocalists of that era and eventually arranged and composed music for Hollywood Films. Johnny won several Grammy awards for his popular songs written for movies and arrangements he did for recordings with Shirley Horn, Natalie Cole, Toots Theilemans, and Quincy Jones plus one for the music for the movie, "I Want to Live!" His songs, "A Time for Love" and the "Theme from M*A*S*H" received Academy Award nominations and he won an Oscar for "The Shadow of Your Smile."

This oral history is an edited transcription of the last part of our more than two-hour telephone conversation on September 23, 1996. I sincerely thank Mr. Mandel for sharing his time and his recollections with me.

Johnny Mandel: I moved to California intending to stay there at the beginning of 1954 and played for six weeks with Duke and Jimmy Rowles. After that, I knew I wasn't going to play anymore. I haven't picked up the horn since.

Larry Fisher: Is this the time that you began writing film scores?

JM: I didn't do a movie for about four years. I really did everything else first. I wrote arrangements for many singers including Peggy Lee, Andy Williams and Frank Sinatra. I also wrote for many acts that went to Las Vegas. I even worked there for a while and basically did everything musically that it took to write for the movies. I really wasn't interested in doing movies until I reluctantly took on the challenge. I soon discovered that my previous experience with casino shows was just like working with the visual effect of dancers in Broadway shows. In New York at WMGM I wrote for radio dramas and had to make the music fit time intervals that were predetermined down to the second. When I got into the movies all of the individual skills I developed had to be used together and it felt totally natural. The first movie I was involved in was in 1958. It was "I Want to Live!"

LF: What a great movie and a great way to start.

JM: It was good, and I said, "Hey, I like this kind of work."

LF: How did the jazz music fit into the whole scheme of the movie? How was it put together?

JM: Actually, it was an interesting thing in the sense that we had a story that would work with a jazz score, one of the few I've ever seen. The female lead played by Susan Hayward was a jazz fan and loved Gerry Mulligan. Record producer Jack Lewis was with United Artists at the time. He got hold of this deal and called me to work on the movie. His plan for me was in two parts. The first was to write the music for the film using a small group that included Gerry Mulligan, Art Farmer, Bud Shank, Red Mitchell, Pete Jolly, Frank Rosolino and Shelly Mann. I wrote all the tunes and arrangements. Later we wanted to record another version of the movie score using a much bigger group. There were no strings and it was like a large wind ensemble.

I knew that I could write this score using only jazz material and I did it using traditional movie technique with the music all timed down to a 10th of a second. Bending jazz music into the dramatic situations felt right because the concept of the story was sound. I'll say that it was the first all jazz movie score, probably the only one, and it worked because the material was right for it. I had people who wanted me to write jazz scores for other movies since then but I have always declined. The scripts didn't seem to be completely compatible with jazz and I didn't want it to sound like a shotgun wedding.

LF: What other movies were you involved in after "I Want To Live!"

JM: Next was "The Americanization of Emily" in, I believe 1963, and "The Sandpiper" in 1964.

LF: What can you tell me that was new or special about these experiences?

JM: I really didn't become a songwriter until this time. I had written lots of instrumental music and never thought of myself as a songwriter, but I got forced into writing a song which turned out to be "Emily." They like the theme music I wrote for "The Americanization of Emily" and I was asked to make a song out of it. I said, "I don't write lyrics, we need a lyricist." They said, "OK, who do you want." I said, "let's start at the top, get Johnny Mercer." They did and he wrote the words. "Emily" become a big hit largely because this was back at a time when publishers were really earning their money with aggressive promotion. As I said before, I never started off wanting to become a songwriter, but I really enjoyed doing it. It wasn't because of the money, but more for the satisfaction and being able to work with some new great people.

The soundtrack music for "The SandPiper" was my next project. The song "The Shadow of Your Smile" had works written by Paul Webster, a wonderful lyricist who also collaborated with me on "A Time for Love" from the movie "An American Dream." Both were nominated for Academy Awards, but I received my Oscar for "The Shadow of Your Smile." It also won a Grammy and was voted "Song of the Year."

LF: In what other movies did you become involved?

JM: There were many but not as significant at the box office as the ones we just talked about. There was "Being There," "The Verdict," "Death Trap," "Point Blank," "The Russians are Conning," to name only a few. Then, of course, there was "M*A*S*H." The "Theme from M*A*S*H" is my biggest song, but it certainly wasn't my best effort.

LF: Would you consider "The Shadow of Your Smile" you best song writing effort?

JM: I don't know if it's my favorite song. "A Time for Love" might be a better song or "Close Enough for Love" might be even better. Who am I to say, every composer has favorite songs that nobody has ever heard of.

LF: There are very few people that have never heard the "Theme from M*A*S*H" due to the amazing popularity of the television series. Please shed some light on your involvement.

JM: I did a movie with Robert Altman in 1968 or 1969 titled "That Cold Day in the Park." It was a nice little movie out in Vancouver and Bob and I had gotten along very well. He was starting to work on the movie, "M*A*S*H" and it was decided that I would write the music. It was a very funny screenplay and it looked like it was going to be a great movie and a whole lot of fun. We had no idea at that time that it was going to be a big hit movie or that a television show would be a spin off. There was a section of the movie referred to as "the last supper scene" where the dentist, "the painless Pole," was going to commit suicide because he was unable to perform sexually with a W.A.C. the night before. He figured his life was over and had no alternative than to do away with himself because of this humiliation. This scene was one of the first sequences we were going to film. It's nice when you can be on a picture from the beginning. Bob and I were sitting around having a few drinks several days before they started shooting when he said, "in this last super scene there's a part when they're all filing around the coffin dropping things in like a bottle of Scotch, a Playboy magazine and other items to help see this guy to the next world." "It's kind of dead and we should have a song." "It should be the stupidest damn song you ever heard." I said, "Ok, I can do stupid." We sat in silence for a few minutes then Bob said, "Suicide is Painless... that would be a nice title for this." I agreed. He said, "I used to write lyrics and I'm going to take it home and see what I can do with this." He came back a few days later and said,

"Look, I tried fooling around with that song but there's too much up in this 45-year-old computer, my brain, for me to write anything as stupid as I really need." 1 indicated that it was a shame and that I thought it was a good idea. He said, however, that all was not lost. "I have a 14-year-old kid with a guitar who is a total idiot and he'll be able to run through this in 5 minutes." Bob's son, Michael Altman wrote the words to the entire song and dummied it to a Leonard Cohen melody in a 6/8 meter. After I listened to the tape repeatedly it was hard for me to get away from this melody, but I used his lyrics and eventually wrote the familiar melody which for the movie became "Suicide is Painless." Later for the television series the words were not used and it simply became known as the "Theme From M*A*S*H." We pre-recorded the song, which was common practice for a movie and the next day did the filming with the actors mouthing the words. They liked the tune so much that they also stuck it up front of the movie and under the helicopters. I fought them on that and told them that it didn't fit. They said they liked it there and it would stay. I'm really glad I lost that fight. This introduction carried over to the television series and became the biggest hit I had.

LF: M*A*S*H reruns continue to be aired in the U.S. on many stations just about every day and the same is probably true all over the world. Your music has reached millions and millions of people.

JM: It's just like the old adage, "Don't throw anything away, it may become a hit." Many songs have fallen under this category. For instance, the song, "Mona Lisa" was written for a terrible "C" movie titled "Captain Cary U.S.A.." It was never thought to have potential or meant to be a hit song, but they didn't consider the artistry of Nat King Cole. His recording is a classic.

LF: You did arrangements for Natalie Cole's album, "Unforgettable." How was her live singing combined with Nat's recordings?

JM: We brought him back from the dead and produced the duets. We called these techniques "necrophilia tricks." Seriously, the concept originated with Natalie. She did her act in nightclubs and included a segment of her father's songs. She got a film clip of Nat singing "Unforgettable" so they devised a way to project the clip of Nat singing on a screen in the back of the stage and Natalie sang along as a duet. This always got a real response from the audience and it became the genesis for the recording and the video.

LF: Tell me about how the recording was put together.

JM: We used a three track 4 inch tape recorder that was originally designed to record all those terrible singers in the 1950s. They were amateurs for the most part taken right off of parking lots and the companies got records out of them. The musicians in the bands backing them up loved these singers because they were running up fantastic overtime until the singers were able to record an acceptable product. The record companies started screaming for new 3 track technology by which they could record the band in right and left stereo and send them home. The middle track was reserved for these schmucks and they would work with them until they got it right. That's how 3 track recording originated. Anyway, back to Natalie and Nat. I thought it would be best to use a 3 track recorder instead of 2 track stereo which would have been tougher to deal with Nat's singing and the band accompaniment.

Basically, we wanted to fish out his voice and use it with Natalie and a new accompaniment. In the days when Nat was recording they didn't use recording booths. He was separated from the band by screens or flats since there was no ceiling. As we put the new recording together we were able to get enough volume on Nat's voice so we could use it, but the accompaniment would leak through. I then had to write something that wouldn't conflict with what was going on with the orchestra and the parts he was singing. When Natalie was singing by herself, I could write whatever accompaniment I wanted because we muted Nat's track. When she sang to him, duet style, we would open his track and combine her live voice with his recorded voice and my instrumental arrangements.

LF: That's fascinating!

JM: It was, and quite eerie while we were doing it. We couldn't see into the booth and it was like he was in there with her. His voice would come over and we were playing live. It was very moving when we were doing it. Natalie's mom was there in the studio and she was falling apart, in total tears. I didn't expect it, but it was a very emotional experience the first time we did it.

LF: Do you have any other inside stories you would be willing to talk about?

JM: Dave Grusin and I did a lot of writing for Andy Williams when he had his real good television show. Andy had great ears and I used to try to challenge him and play games with the music, but it was all in fun. I'd write impossible-to-hear modulations and stuff like that, but never once was I able to throw him. I was sure I got him on several occasions, but he essentially said, "No you don't" by always hitting it right on the nose. He could hear anything and he's a very talented guy.

LF: I was always impressed with his big sound and the clarity of his voice.

JM: He was a protege of Kay Thompson, a singer and theater type. She used to do an act and had the Williams Brothers backing her when they were little kids. Andy had the kind of training where he had to sing all those hard-to-hear parts. That stayed with him throughout his career which is why I was never able to throw him.

LF: Can you relate some advice to students who may be interested in a career of writing music for TV or the movies?

JM: I wish I could say something positive. If I had a kid who wanted to go into the business he would have to want to do it an awful lot because he's going to have to put up with an awful lot of crap. When I went into the business, I was willing to put up with anything. It was very different then and there were a lot more opportunities of course.

LF: Has the synthesizer, low budgets, and maybe greed changed things for good?

JM: Yeah, but it's also the executives and the people who are running the business. If you look at the quality of the movies coming out it just really stinks. It's done by amateurs for the most part, not only the music, but the movies themselves. There isn't any know-how by someone who has been doing it for 30 or 40 years like there used to be. It takes a long time to get good.

LF: Are you saying that nothing beats paying your dues?

JM: Yeah, that's how you learn, how you get good. It's not by finding winning formulas that will gross a lot of box office for a limited period of time until the next fad comes along. That's not what getting good is all about at all. Getting good means falling on your ass and learning what to do, what not to do, what works, what doesn't work and why it doesn't. It takes this process to become a really well rounded talent. It's not something you usually have from the start unless you are going to be a "one trick pony" or something who hits it once or twice and then is finished.

LF: When you were hired to do a film score were you in charge of what was actually good?

JM: No film composer is totally in charge of anything. 

LF: Then you have to put up with the editing of others?

JM: Oh, they try to make unwise changes and that is the main reason I don't want to do films anymore. There are too many amateurs cutting and pasting.

LF: So, if someone came to you with a proposal to do another film would you consider it at all or just turn it down?

JM: It would have to be a very special situation.

LF: How about television?

JM: No, absolutely not.

LF: If you could do some things over again, what would they be?

JM: I wouldn't know where to begin, but I'd get to know a lot of people much better than I did. When you're young you think everything is going to be here forever. I thought big bands would be forever, what did I know?

LF: Big band music is forever in the minds of people who love this music and appreciate the talent and the culture of those who created it. Mozart is also forever, but it's up to the music educators to show the value of all kinds of quality music to new generations. It doesn't seem to get any easier for us to accomplish this. We are competing with overwhelming marketing that is successfully selling trash to connoisseurs of the inconsequential.

JM: I am very grateful for everything that has happened to me as a result of being in the music business. I was lucky and I enjoyed every minute of it.

LF: Your career evolved into a beautiful upward spiral that took you from one challenge to the next, You built on past experience, paid your dues, and wound up enjoying each new level of the demands made on your talent for composing and arranging. Your success is highly commendable. What are you working on now and what are your future plans?

JM: I like songwriting a whole lot and it's very hard for me to write songs that are not connected to something. The type of songs I like to write are not bought by the movies anymore so it's mostly my own stuff right now. I just want to make some records of my own songs. I'd really like to do big band arrangements again and some large, nice, lush orchestra scores.

LF: Do you foresee a market for this?

JM: No, I'm just going to do it and then worry about selling it later. If I worry about selling it first, I don't know that I'll like what I've done later. I've gotten to the point that I'll just do it and maybe somebody sooner or later will want it. If they don't, I'll have enjoyed doing it. I might as well do the things I enjoy. If I don't do it now, when am I going to do it?