Showing posts with label commodore records. Show all posts
Showing posts with label commodore records. Show all posts

Tuesday, March 19, 2019

Commodore Records: A Tribute to Milt Gabler and a Look at Wild Bill Davison

© -Steven Cerra, copyright protected; all rights reserved.




“Commodore was founded in 1938 as an offshoot at a legendary min-Manhattan Jazz record store.  It was one of the first and best examples of a unique and highly important element of the American Jazz scene –  a record company owner whose principal motivation was a deep love for the music and whose main goal was to celebrate Jazz and its players.


Commodore was essentially the creation of one remarkable man, Milt Gabler, who [in what was to become the tradition among the many other small, independent Jazz labels that followed] was the CO, the producer of virtually the entire catalog, and frequently the shipping clerk.


Although much of his producing activity was focused on the “Dixieland” [Traditional Jazz] style spearheaded by Eddie Condon and involving notable artists such as Pee Wee Russell, Jack Teagarden, Bud Freeman and Bobby Hackett, Commodore was also responsible for major recordings by Billie Holiday, Lester Young, Coleman Hawkins and many other key figures of the day, before ceasing operations in the mid-1950s.


Incredibly, Mr. Gabler was simultaneously active as the head of recording for Decca Records, one of the most prolific pop [and Jazz] labels of the period.”
- Richard Witmer, Barry Kernfeld, Ed. The New Grove Dictionary of Jazz


“What carries each performance is the rhythmic and emotive force he injects, and that's his and his alone. It's an uncompromisingly strenuous way of dealing with the horn, almost athletic in the sheer strength it requires — which is why a lot of Davison emulators — and there have been more than a few over the years — have ultimately fallen down on the job. And it's why he always came off on the records with that special, get-it-while-it's hot, kind of urgency.”
- Richard M. Sudhalter,  Wild Bill Davison: The Commodore Master Takes [Commodore CMD - 405]


The editorial staff at JazzProfiles often wonders what would have happened to the legacy of Jazz without the contributions of the independent Jazz labels.


Although some of these small label entrepreneurs were more successful than others, the road that many if not most of them traveled to record and preserve so many interesting and important Jazz works often reminds me of the response to the fabled Jazz question:


“How do you make a million dollars in Jazz?”


Answer: “Start with two million!”


All of this came to mind when I pulled Wild Bill Davison: The Commodore Master Takes [Commodore CMD - 405] out of the collection for a “spin” in my CD player.



Not only do the 24 tracks on this disc offer the listener a musical stroll down a Dixieland Memory Lane, but, as an added bonus, the insert notes to the Davison Commodore collection are by none other than Richard M. Sudhalter, the author of wonderful biographies on Bix Beiderbecke and Hoagy Carmichael and the definitive Lost Chords: White Musicians and Their Contributions to Jazz, 1915-1945.


I find the writings of Dick Sudhalter to be as passionate as they are informed.


He writes about Jazz in a way that I can relate to - full of energy and enthusiasm - but also with the researched insights that come from one who has done their homework.


In other words, Dick Sudhalter is a fan, but he also knows what he’s talking about.


And, he's from a generation - like me - who cut their Jazz teeth on Dixieland.


The Commodore recordings have been reissued a number of times and the collection that I have was set to CD by Orrin Keepnews, who was also quite famous for his efforts at such independent labels as Riverside, Mainstream and Landmark. He had this to say as a prelude to Dick Sudhalter’s insert notes to Wild Bill Davison: The Commodore Master Takes [Commodore CMD - 405]


[Some opening remarks by the reissue producer: Wild Bill Davison, who as it turns out made a very lasting early impression on annotator Dick Sudhalter — and an equally lasting, even earlier impression on me — cut 24 sides as a leader for Commodore Records, not bad productivity for a just-under-two-year period that also included a sizable chunk of World War II and a musicians' union recording ban. Since Davison was above all a dynamic, no frills, full-speed-ahead player, it seems entirely appropriate thai we are able to present the master takes, as initially issued, of all double-dozen selections, which have been preserved for over half-century and more in their original acetate form. — Orrin Keepnews]




THERAPY WITH A FLAMETHROWER


It's hard to say now, so long afterward, which made the more powerful first impact, the sound of him or the look.


Think of it. You're young, maybe fourteen, deeply impressionable. You've happened an hot jazz in much the way you find an old air force flight jacket or lovingly-cared for baseball mitt in a dark corner of the attic. Like Howard Carter opening King Tut's tomb, or so you've imagined: that some sense of something ineffably precious, its presence hitherto unsuspected.


You've badgered your folks into letting you take cornet lessons because you heard Bix on an old record and couldn't get the carillon tone out of your head. Gradually other sounds have been moving in beside it: smooth, singing Bobby Hackett; magisterial Bunny Berigan; snappy, strutting Sidney De Paris.


And Wild Bill Davison. All those choruses on the Eddie Condon records, sounding as if they'd been ripped bodily from the horn. Tough as the street-corner kids down on the other side of West Newton Square, yet as heart-on-sleeve as some Irish tenor singing about the "Lass of Aughrim."


Above all, an amazing knack for cranking a band to a pitch of excitement that made Bill Haley, Elvis and the rest of the pop tinpots sound as foolish and phony as they probably were. There was, especially, a version of "St. Louis Blues," from one of Rudi Blesh's This Is Jazz broadcasts — Davison, Edmond Hall, Sidney Bechet, Jimmy Archey, Pops Foster, Baby Dodds — whose sheer megawattage could just scare you to death. Wild Bill, indeed.


Then came a snowy February night when the family was visiting New York, and a dear old uncle steered the lot of us downtown to West Third Street and a tiny club called Eddie Condon's. The picture remains sharp: second-story gallery running round the room, like something out of a saloon in a cowboy movie; down on the floor, people with crewcuts mashed shoulder-to-shoulder at tiny tables, their chatter often — but not often enough — hushed by what was happening on the bandstand.


Up there, incredibly, is Bill Davison himself, looking like anything but the standard image of the cornet or trumpet player. Not like Louis Armstrong, horn tilted up and eyes rolled back as the tone takes flight; not like Maxie Kaminsky, so tiny that his instrument seems gigantic in his hands. Not like Bix. in some old photo or other, dented cornet pointed resolutely at the floor.


Nope. This guy is seated, one leg crossed casually over the other, drink on an upended barrel in front of him. He sweeps the cornet into the side of his mouth to expel some supercharged phrase, then jerks it away as if it's too hot to keep there. And, I realize, awe-struck, he's chewing gum! Where in the world does he keep the stuff when he's blowing?


In short, he looked just the way he sounded — like a guy from Ohio (a town named, aptly, Defiance) with a fierce, uninhibited way of attacking the beat, driving a band of whatever size halfway into tomorrow. The music comes out as from a flamethrower, but with a density and momentum only suggested by even the best records.


Lots of years have passed, and change, as they say, is the only constant. Eddie Condon's is long gone, and with it the incomparably wise-ass guitar player who ran it. So, too, are Ed Hall, Cutty Cutshall, Gene Schroder, George Wettling and all the test of the one-off characters on the stand that night. Even Wild Bill himself turned out, in 1989, to be as mortal as the next guy.


But memories — and the records — remain. Sure, they're not a patch on the real thing; but absent that, they'll do just fine. A lot of young guys, some of them not yet even conceived on that once upon a time evening, still play something like the same kind of jazz. Many are able, fluent, even gifted. But the frisson, the shock, generated by the guy with the chewing gum? Never no more.


Orrin Keepnews, who has heard a lot of great jazz in his time, captured more than a little of it on records, and is the producer of this reissue, was thinking about all that not long ago, remembering for my benefit the dark World War II days at the beginning of 1943 when, not quite out of his teens, he was approaching the date of his induction into what was then the Army Air Corps. On quite a few evenings he'd wander, as if drawn by a magnet, into Nick's, at the corner of Seventh Avenue and West Tenth Street. There was no Condon's yet — that was still a couple of years off. But Nick's, a club actually run by a man named Nick Rongetti whose love of hot jazz was matched only by a saintly tolerance for the ways of its practitioners, was headquarters for Condon and his pals, most of whom had been associated with him in one way or another since the old days in Chicago.


The horns that winter included George Brunies, who as a kid had come north from New Orleans to join a history-making band at the Friars' Inn in downtown Chicago, and Pee Wee Russell, whose unique clarinet style invited such otherwise contradictory adjectives as cranky, gentle, querulous, tortured, whimsical, vulnerable, neurotic, unpredictable, bardic, confiding, discursive, succinct, economical, guileless, convoluted — and just as many more, all equally applicable.


And, charging everybody's batteries, Bill Davison. "I was there as often as I could," Keepnews recalled. "Those guys — Bill, Brunies, Pee Wee — sounded so good together. Strong. Powerful. Natural. They knew just what they were doing, and I can't remember a night when it didn't work. I'm not exaggerating when I say it saved my sanity."


That band, the one that worked its therapy on Orrin's pre-military nights, eventually got to make records. At first, of course, James C. Petrillo's American Federation of Musicians recording ban was in effect — theoretically a good idea, in that it sought to win payment for professionals every time their records were played on radio or juke boxes. That it turned out to be such a disaster remains a pity: singers, not subject to its restrictions, moved right in to fill the vacuum where the bands had been, with results we all know. But that's a story for another day.


By late '43, Decca and several small companies, including Milt Gabler's Commodore label (Gabler's main job was making records for Decca), had settled with Petrillo. Milt moved fast, assembling Davison and friends at a recording studio owned and managed by radio station WOR. They recorded on the last Saturday in November, took Sunday off, then recorded again on Monday and Tuesday. The results were nothing short of spectacular — about as close as you could come to an evening at Nick's while still comfortable in your living room.
(Producer's note: Monday's four selections emphasized Brunies and were issued under his name, placing them outside our present scope.)


Even the estimable Dan Morgenstern, who usually expresses his enthusiasms with a measure of literary restraint, lapsed into the "gee whiz!" prase of the youthful jazz fanatic in writing a while back about those records. And no wonder: there's something about the music, a youthful esprit and sense of commitment, that inspires such effusions as "These guys have come to play!."


When Tom Saunders talks about Bill, he gets that telltale far-off look in his eyes. Tom plays comet better and hotter than most anyone around, and he talked to me recently about the first time he had heard Wild Bill: "I must have heen about nine. And whatever I heard — it might well have been one of the Commodores — just amazed me. The fire, the feel. It wasn't long before I knew I wanted to play that way: not his notes, but the drive, the heat. The strength of it."


But all the snap and sizzle, the sheer fervor, can seduce perception. Was Davison himself a great soloist, a particularly creative jazz improviser? Perhaps not: his choruses fall too readily into pattern, predictability, explore few, if any, melodic or harmonic byways. Very often they come off as processions of set-piece figures, albeit attractive ones. You know what's next, even wait for it, smile knowingly when the long glisses the falsetto high notes with their strong terminal shake, the down and dirty drive licks, wheel into view.


But was he a performer, an artist, of immense expressive gifts? Just as certainly, yes. That's what enriches his opening and closing Baby, Won't You Please Come Home cadenzas here, provides all the wattage for his lead on That's a Plenty and Original Dixieland One-Step, and transfigures so personally the melody of Wrap Your Troubles in Dreams. There's never a moment that's not arresting, that doesn't rivet attention.


As a catalyst, an inspiring forte, Davison had few peers. Perhaps Roy Eldridge, if in quite another way, or Sidney Bechet with whom Bill played especially well. His ardor illuminates Ghost of a Chance, pumps life into tired old Jazz Me Blues and Muskrat Ramble, makes the machinery run.


Davison's idea of his job, I suspect, was just that: to lead and energize; and he did it superbly. Sure, there are moments when he declares fealty to Louis (Confessin') and others where his reverence for Bix (I'm Coming Virginia) is hard to miss. But all that is background, reflecting the sounds he'd heard and admired as a young man. What carries each performance is the rhythmic and emotive force he injects, and that's his and his alone. It's an uncompromisingly strenuous way of dealing with the horn, almost athletic in the sheer strength it requires — which is why a lot of Davisan emulators — and there have been more than a few over the years — have ultimately fallen down on the job. And it's why he always came off on the records with that special, get-it-while-it's hot, kind of urgency.


Listen to Tom Saunders again: "I was working in Detroit, at a place called the Surfside Lounge. Bill was in town, featured with a band over at the Showboat. I'd talked a lot about him to the Surfside's owner, saying things like, 'Jeez, I'd like to go down and hear him.’ So one night while we're playing, unbeknownst to me Dave, the owner, jumped in his Jaguar, drove down to the Showboat. There was nobody in the place; the band was playing for maybe three people. He bought Bill a drink, told him about the Surfside, about the band he had there — and about the Jaguar, knowing Bill was a car nut.


"Next thing you know, Bill's boxing his horn up, telling the band to finish the night without him. Well, Dave brought him in the back door, and we're playing — 'That's A Plenty' or something. And all at once this hot, searing horn lets fly, and damn near took my head off my shoulders. I said to myself, 'Goddamn! That could be only one guy.' And I turned around and there he was. What a night!


"Dave signed him up when he was done at the Showboat. He was supposed to do two, three weeks, and wound up staying four or five months. It just worked, and we became great friends, remained close, almost a father-son thing, until he died."


Milt Gabler seems to have had to do an unaccustomed amount of lineup juggling in putting together the Davison sessions, possibly because there was a war going on. It generally worked out well. For example, on the first four of the six sessions that make up this collection, when Pee Wee wasn't there the clarinet was Edmond Hall, equally able to stand alongside Bill and match his firepower. Hall's distinctive Albert-system tone (dry down low, acid up high, always warm) and cut-and slash attack made him an eminently suitable partner, as on Original Dixieland One-Step. Ditto for the rhythm section, especially the team of Schroeder, Condon, Casey and Wettling.


The only personnel problem came from a quarter least expected. As Gabler has attested, every time he'd tried to get Dave Tough on a Commodore date something had gone wrong. But he persisted, and finally, in the first week of 1946, he succeeded. The drummer had just left Woody Herman's band, which he'd helped build into one of the most thrilling of the day. Fascinated by the innovations of bebop, yet rooted in older timekeeping methods, he was a man in transition — brilliant and articulate, neurotic and deeply troubled.


And somehow, for reasons not easy to define, his union with Davison on High Society, Wabash Blues and the rest doesn't really click. The big Chinese ride cymbal, which had powered Herman's band and those of Tommy Dorsey and Artie Shaw before that (and been such a delight on other records with Condon and Bud Freeman) seems ill-suited to the rough-and-ready ways of the Davison-Brunies entente. The rhythm never quite settles down.


Still and all, that's a minor complaint. Just listening, cut after cut, to the uncompromising solos and take-no-prisoners ensembles, the consistent forcefulness of it all, makes clear what got to Keepnews, to Saunders, to Morgenstern, and — no doubt about it — to teenage me so very long ago. There's nothing else in all jazz quite like it. And how blessed we are, every one of us, to have savored it in our lifetimes.”


— RICHARD M. SUDHALTER


[Trumpeter, writer, and jazz historian Dick Sudhalter takes a special pleasure in retailing the Dixieland (sometimes known as "Nicksieland") style exemplified, several decades ago, by such swashbucklers as Eddie Condon and Wild Bill Davison.]


Saturday, November 8, 2014

Commodore Records and CrossoverMedia

© -  Steven A. Cerra, copyright protected; all rights reserved.


What follows is intended to provide you with a “then and now” perspective on music reproduction and media distribution, or, what a difference nearly 100 years make!


Stay with this one as it is an example of how quickly things can change in just a few generations.


In Reading Jazz: A Gathering of Autobiography, Reportage, and Criticism from 1919 to Now, editor Robert Gottlieb has included excerpts from an extensive interview of Milt Gabler conducted by the esteemed Jazz writer and historian Dan Morgenstern that was included as part of Charlie Lourie and Michael Cuscuna’s huge project of reissuing the entire catalogue of Gabler’s Commodore Records, “a unique piece of Jazz history.”


In the interview, Milt Gabler [MG] recounts the following [paraphrased in places]:


“Q: You were born in New York City?


MG: That's right [1911]. I was born in Harlem, 114th Street and St. Nicholas Avenue, 169 St. Nicholas Ave.


Q: Let's start with the shop. It was your father's shop, but it wasn't a record store until you got involved in it, right?


MG: … My father's store was on Third Avenue between 41st and 42nd streets at that time. He had a radio and electrical store, a supply shop. Originally he was a hardware man, and when electrical stuff came in, he took that in. Then at the end of World War I, my Uncle Sid, my mother's younger brother, talked him into putting in radio parts and stuff like that, and they opened their radio department.


Later, a store became available between Lex and Third Avenue on the downtown side of the street, at 144 East 42nd Street, a little nine-foot store. Sid talked my dad into opening a radio shop exclusively on 42nd Street, to be nearer to Grand Central and get the flow of traffic when people walked to the Third and Second Avenue El. They had elevated trains in those years, although the Lexington Avenue was below ground.


Radio was coming in by '26 and '27, especially ham radios. Everybody built their own sets in those years. You bought kits, or you bought parts. You got these radio magazines and learned how to put together a crystal set or a one-tube set. And we sold batteries and aerial wire and all that kind of stuff.


I, of course, went with Sid to the 42nd Street store, and would wait on customers. Acetone speakers came out . . . Cone speakers were invented in those years, where you would get, like a wooden frame and you would stretch airplane cloth that they used on the wings of the airplanes in 1918, like the Wright Brothers and all. You stretched it over this square frame. They had magnetic coil and stuff with a stylus coming out of it, and a gimmick for putting the hole in the cloth, and then tightening on with a thumb screw, and pulling it back. Then you bought this stuff that kids used to sniff later, the glue, and you poured it on the cloth and it would shrink and become taut, and you would have a cone. Now they're made out of paper, but then you did it with this airplane cloth. And we sold all those kits and everything. It had a better sound the little magnetic thing, like a more sensitive earphone in your telephone. Those were the first loudspeakers with a cone on them, a cone diaphragm.


Anyway, I had one of those cone speakers up over the door transom. We used to tune in the radio stations, whatever was on—I don't remember the call letters. Of course, it was before the Red and the Blue Networks. But you did have Schenectady and you had what's now NBC and you had WOR. If it was music playing, some people walked in and asked if I sold phonograph records. I said "No, it's a radio store." Because they heard the music. After a while, there were quite frequent requests for phonograph records. So I told my father, "Pop, I'm getting calls for records in the store and we ought to take in records." He said, "Well, if you're getting calls, get the Yellow Pages [they had Yellow Pages in those years too] and look up the phonograph record companies" . . . Because at home, we had always had a crank phonograph, a Columbia Graphinola that my father bought in 1917 or 1918. So I was familiar with the records of the day, the humorous records, the cantorial records, opera records, and classical records that he used to play.


So I called up and I got the Columbia salesman. He said, "The salesman will come down." So the Columbia man came in and the Brunswick salesman came in. Victor wouldn't send anybody down because two blocks away from us there was a franchise. In the early days, around the time of World War I, or when Caruso was so big, you got exclusive dealerships on records. Even Columbia and Victor . . . If you had Columbia, you didn't have Victor records. If you had Victor they were almighty. They wouldn't let you stock any other label. And if you got that franchise, you had a good shop. So they still had that policy—1926 probably was the tail end of it. We had to wait until the dealer closed up a couple of blocks away. As soon as he went out of business, I called them and we got Victor Records. But it was a couple of years after I had the others. ….


MG: The Depression came right after radio hit big. Because as soon as they invented cone speakers, and electronic recording and all that stuff, things went . . . Electronically, the sound was much better than the old acoustical diaphragms on the old phonographs that we used to wind up and play. Although RCA or Victor had the Orthophonic, with a great air chamber in it and all, it couldn't compare to the electric sound that you got by playing a record. You see, they invented the phonograph pickup. So about this time, people could play records through their radio speaker rather than play them acoustically through air chambers.


And the Depression hit at that time, and people didn't have the money to buy records. People were listening to radio.


Actually, I may have been the first teacher to get my customers to get deep into collecting. It was an evolution for me. People found they could come into my store, and I would tell them about a new Louis Armstrong or a Duke Ellington record, that it was out. By musicians coming in, I found out the names of people that played on records. I would say "Who played that great trombone solo on that?" You soon found out, in the '20s, that it was Jack Teagarden or young Benny Goodman on those records. So that's what we would talk about.


Our name in the phone book was Commodore Radio Corporation, 144 E. 42nd Street. The telephone company was very efficient in those years. They called up and said, "We're getting calls for a Commodore Music Shop, and the Commodore Radio Corp. is listed at that address. Why don't you buy a listing for Commodore Music Shop in the phone book so people will be able to find you?" It was obviously a great idea, so we paid for the extra listing. The record part of it kept growing. Every week records would come out. So we changed the name from the Commodore Radio Corp. to the Commodore Music Shop. The record department got so big, we got rid of the radios, we got rid of all the sporting goods and tricks and novelties, etc.” [pp. 214-216, 219]


Milt would go on to form Commodore Records on which he recorded some of the great Early Jazz musicians such as Lester Young, Pee Wee Russell and Billie Holiday and sell these recordings through the shop, which brings us full circle to the Mosaic Reissues on both LP and CD.


The information about the Milt Gabler’s early years at his family electrical, radio and records stores and how they led to the formation of Commodore’s Records was what the world of music reproduction and distribution was like during the early decades of the 20th century.


Today’s standard for how music is made and made available to those who wish to purchase it is best exemplified by Crossover Media whose representative, Amanda Bloom, contacted me recently on behalf of four of the artist they represent and asked about my interest in reviewing their recordings on JazzProfiles.


When I said that I was interested and to please send me the CD’s, she gently redirected my attention to the fact that it would be quicker and more thorough if she could send me links to these artists “Pages” on which I could access and download Mp3 files for each of the recordings I had indicated a willingness to review PLUS - each Artist Page contained - Media Tracking [in what states and on what stations excerpts from the CD have been played - Track Listings [all of the tracks on the CD;sample the music] - tour dates [past and upcoming] - press releases - artist biography - videos of the artist performing music from the CD kk- stories that have been written about the artist or the new CD or both - Twitter, Facebook and YouTube feeds all by clicking on them.


All of this information was available at a glance with one mouse click after bringing up a browser, putting in a link and reviewing the appropriate page.


[I should clarify that while samples are available, the full Mp3 files for each track on a recording must be purchased].


I had expressed interested in Somi, a new vocalist from Nigeria, tenor and soprano saxophonist Branford Marsalis latest effort which he recorded at Grace Cathedral in San Francisco, trumpeter Orbert Davis recreation of the famous Sketches of Spain recording by Miles Davis and Gil Evans with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra’s Chamber Ensemble, and anthology of interpretations entitled “Red Hot Bach.


In the comfort of your own living room [or wherever your computer is situated], you can click on the following links and each in turn will bring you a world of information on each of these artists and each of these recordings.


Just like that!


Given the pace of development explained in the narrative involving Milt Gabler’s Commodore Records, the astoundingly fast method that Crossover provides for coming into contact with the artist and their music is like something out of Samuel Beckett and The Theater of The Absurd.


By way of example, if you click on the link below this graphics of Somi, you will find a wealth of detailed information about the artist on her Crossover Media page.




Branford Marsalis has a new recording which features his performances at San Francisco’s famed Grace Cathedral. Want to know more? Just click on the link below the cover art.



The details of Orbert Davis’ stunning reinterpretation of the classic Miles Davis - Gil Evans collaboration on the iconic Columbia recording entitled Skecthes of Spain are one click away via this link:




Interested in listening to the eternal music of J.S. Bach in different musical settings? A click on the following link while bring you a whole host of them.


http://crossovermedia.net/artists/various/projects/red-hot-bach/

As it pertains to Jazz, the choice of “Crossover” is a particularly apt name for a media distribution firm because from its formative days in New Orleans’ Congo Square, Jazz has been crossing African rhythms with European harmonies and incorporating melodic influences from French, Spanish and Creole cultures that were still reflective in the Crescent City at the turn of the 20th century.


When Jazz moved up the Mississippi River via riverboat, the diverse urban cultures of Memphis, St. Louis and Chicago all played their part in shaping the music. The railroad helped Jazz “crossover” into New York in the East, Kansas City in the Midwest and Los Angeles and San Francisco bringing yet more cultural diversity into the music.


Since its inception, Jazz has been influenced by cross-cultural elements that have expanded it in new directions - melodically, harmonically, rhythmically and texturally [sonority]. Most of these cross-cultural influences have traditionally been national in origin.


Today’s influences are more international as modern day information and communication system bring all of the World’s cultures closer together.


If you are curious about what Jazz today might sound like, spend some time visiting the various artists pages on Crossover media’s website.


Many examples of the music’s latest manifestations are just a click away thanks to the audio-visual files and folders made possible by the Crossover Media team of savvy marketers and customer-friendly techies. Musical artists wholly or in combination have never been better served.

I wonder what Milt Gabler would have made of it all?