Showing posts with label johnny mandel. Show all posts
Showing posts with label johnny mandel. Show all posts

Thursday, May 15, 2025

Hoagy Sings Carmichael With Johnny Mandel and The Pacific Jazzmen [From the Archives]

 © -Steven Cerra, copyright protected; all rights reserved.


Hoagy Sings Carmichael With The Pacific Jazzmen [Pacific Jazz CD 0777 7 46862 2 8] has sat in my collection for a long time, but I never knew its origins until I read the following in Richard M. Sudhalter’s Stardust Melody: The Life and Music of Hoagy Carmichael [Oxford/2002].


Sadly, like Bing Crosby, Hoagy Carmichael and the impact he had on American popular music, especially during the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s, is pretty much lost to 21st century music listeners.


But if you do have an interest in the life and music of Hoagy Carmichael, as his son, Hoagy Bix Carmichael states on the book’s dust jacket: “There’s nobody on the face of this musical earth better suited to write a book about my father than Dick Sudhalter. And as expected, he has done a wonderful job.”


“Toward the end of 1956, Hoagy’s Decca recording contract, in force since 1938, finally expired. …


However inauspicious a way it might have been to end so long and fruitful an association, it also formed a prelude to one of Hoagy Carmichael's finest moments on record. Richard Bock, owner of World Pacific Records, had been a fan for years; now, with Hoagy free of record-company commitment, nothing prevented him from recording the songwriter in a new and challenging setting.


New Yorker Johnny Mandel had done his band business apprenticeship toying trombone with, and arranging for, Jimmy Dorsey, Boyd Raeburn, Buddy Rich, Woody Herman, Artie Shaw's short-lived 1949 bebop band, and — perhaps most telling of all — Count Basie. He'd worked as a radio staff arranger in New York, studied at Manhattan School of Music and Juilliard, contributed scores to NBC television's Your Show of Shows, arranged an album for singer Dick Haymes.[Mandel’s career as a composer of many beautiful songs including Emily, Close Enough for Love, The Shadow of Your Smile, et al was yet to come].


Bock's idea was simple: feature Carmichael singing his own songs, backed not by slick studio bands, tack-in-hammer pianos, or warbling vocal trios, but by a tightly knit group of ranking modern jazzmen, playing carefully textured and swinging arrangements.


"We went out to visit him," said Mandel. "Forget now whether it was in Hollywood or Palm Springs. Found him there behind the bar, mixing drinks; really hospitable and gracious. We just got right to talking. He had pretty clear ideas of what he wanted to do, and what he didn't want to do. He realized he wasn't a straight ballad singer, didn't want to do things like 'One Morning in May,' that had all sorts of sustained notes and big intervals. He didn't try to sing 'I Get Along Without You Very Well,' for instance. But he could always do the character-type ballads, like 'Baltimore Oriole,' 'Georgia,' and the rest."


Mandel, in the process of winning respect as a master songwriter in his own right, chuckled at the memory of those first "brainstorming" sessions. "Hoagy hated bebop ... I remember he came to hear Woody's band when it was really hot, and said something like, 'Aw, give me an old bass horn any time.' He meant it, too.


"When I was with Basie, around 1953 or so, we came to town and Hoagy was there — he was doing this TV show, Saturday Night Revue. He just kinda walked around thinking, with his tongue in his cheek, looking kinda glum, and I took him for just a kind of moody guy. Also, some of the guys on the band had told me he was a real far-right Hoosier-type Republican, kind of an Indiana cracker. Johnny [Mercer] was a bit like that too, I guess-though I never saw it in either of them."


Hoagy Sings Carmichael was recorded at three sessions, September 10,11, and 13, 1956 — with a band full of outstanding jazzmen: trumpeter Don Fagerquist had been in Les Brown's brass section for the 1955 "Hong Kong Blues" date; Harry "Sweets" Edison was an honored Basie veteran, then enjoying a career renaissance through his muted obbligato work on the arrangements Nelson Riddle was using to showcase Frank Sinatra; Jimmy Zito, another Brown alumnus, had ghosted the "Art Hazard" solos for Young Man With a Horn.


Alto saxophonist Art Pepper was new to Hoagy, as were pianist Jimmy Rowles and drummer Irv Cottler. An old Carmichael friend, Nick Fatool, replaced Cottier on drums for the third session. Said Mandel: "I spotted his vocals wherever I thought they'd be most effective, stuck 'em in the middles, usually. Remember, I didn't have a big band there — rather, a small band trying to sound big. So voicings were important.


"As a singer? He was a natural. Knew what to keep and what to throw away. Didn't try to be a capital-S singer: more often he approached the songs conversationally, like an actor, like Walter Huston doing 'September Song.' And you know, those are really the most effective readings for those sorts of things, rather than somebody doing something with a straight baritone. You never knew beforehand how he was gonna sing something: when be was going to talk it, where he was gonna leave spaces."


He not only leaves spaces, but on several songs confines his vocals to a decidedly secondary role, giving the major melody expositions to the band. Again and again, his vocals strike the ear as measured, thoughtful, Carmichael taking his time, never pushing his vocal resources beyond their limits, He opens "Two Sleepy People" with only Al Hendrickson's unamplified guitar; carries "Rockin’ Chair" away from its familiar role as a piece of quasi-vaudeville material and returns it to its origins as an end-of-life valedictory, with Rowles, on celeste, underscoring its reflective, pastoral quality.


Art Pepper gets most of the solo space and is particularly distinctive on "Ballad in Blue" — incredibly, the song's first vocal treatment on record since its publication twenty-two years before. "Two Sleepy People" teams him with a cup-muted Fagerquist for a closely intertwined duet, distantly echoing the long-ago "chase" choruses of Bix and Frank Trumbauer.


But the saxophonist's — and perhaps the album's — most stirring moment belongs to "Winter Moon," newly published at the time, with one of Harold Adamson's most affecting lyrics. Pepper establishes the melody, a heartfelt cry in icy emptiness:


Where is love's magic?
Where did it go?
Is it gone like the summertime.
That we used to know?
(The song remained in his mind. Twenty-two years later, his life shattered by heroin addiction and a decade in prison, Pepper recorded it again.
Though cushioned by strings and rhythm, it is a performance of almost unbearable intensity, glowing in a clear, glacial light, hypnotic, agonized.)


The line of descent from "Ballad in Blue" to "Winter Moon" is clear. The desolation of love lost shadows both lyrics, casting both melodies in minor-mode darkness. But unlike its predecessor, "Winter Moon" allows no ray of light to penetrate its interior. Melodically and harmonically sophisticated, emotionally complex, it is a work of its composer's maturity, a regretful backward look at a brighter past, "a kind of art song," in singer Barbara Lea's words. "Not at all what you'd think of as 'typical' Hoagy Carmichael except in its air of longing, something once had and now lost."'


Mandel concluded Hoagy Sings Carmichael with a swinger, a Basle-inflected recasting of "Lazy River" with a sassy, strutting trumpet solo by Sweets Edison. Again, Hoagy rises to the task. "You could tell from that, especially, that he would have been a great jazz musician," the arranger said. "In singing 'Lazy River,' he ... didn't try to sing the line exactly, [because] he realized what would fit his range and vocal quality, especially at that tempo. He was very smart about that, [and] his approach was very jazzy."


George Frazier's sleeve essay spoke for all concerned in declaring that


“...it strikes me as enormously reassuring that an individual who in bygone years made music with men of approximately his own age, background and attitude should be sufficiently uninstitutional to record with a group of musicians (with one exception) so lately undiapered that some of them had not yet been born when Star Dust was becoming the theme song of a whole era. To me, the results of this collaboration sound absolutely marvelous.''


Here are the rest of George Frazier’s excellent sleeve notes with the above excerpt placed in the larger context of his essay on the album.


The trouble with most institutions is that they're too institutional. In their resolute resistance to change, their anachronistic aversion to progress, and their almost insular insistence upon continuing, so to speak, to stock high-button shoes, they permit themselves to become period pieces — often, to be sure, redolently recherche du temps perdu period pieces, but, nevertheless and notwithstanding, almost always very, very aging ones as well. Providentially, no such indictment can be brought against Hoagland (Hoagy) Carmichael, who, institution though he he, has neither a closed mind nor, rather more pertinently, a closed ear.


At any rate, here, in Hoagy Sings Carmichael, a man approaching the ordinarily stodgy, look-before-you-leap age of 58, a man whose earliest musical inspiration was the silvery explosiveness of Bix Beiderbecke's cornet; whose "Lazy Bones" was a delight as long ago as the summer dusks of the '30s, when, with the waters slapping against the shores of the Glen Island Casino, the Casa Loma (ave atque vale) used to play it, as the radio announcer so quaintly phrased it,"for your dancing pleasure"; and whose "Riverboat Shuffle" remains, after all these fickle years, the rousing anthem of the chowder and marching societies that gather nightly in unsolemn conclave in such Dixieland mosques as Jazz, Ltd. in Chicago and Eddie Condon's Sign of the Pork Chop in New York — here, in Hoagy Sings Carmichael this man, or, if you will, this institution, this tradition, this living legend — joins with some of the more explorative spirits in contemporary jazz to achieve fresh interpretations of a batch of his most appealing compositions.


I do not think it either maudlin or churlish to say that Carmichael — his croaky voice, casual manner, diminutive, wizened figure, and bulging songbag — is somehow part of all of us who love worthwhile popular music — the way, for instance, that Tommy Dorsey was, part of us, which is to say that when Tommy died, the part of us that had responded to his "Marie, Song of India," "I'll Never Smile Again," and all those other untarnished treasures died a little too. Carmichael, who was horn in Bloomington. Indiana, on November 22, 1899, has been part of us for quite a while.


Although he spent considerable extracurricular time playing piano with school and college bands. Carmichael would probably have become a practicing attorney (an occupation for which he prepared himself at Indiana University) had it not been for the fact that the Wolverines, a group he admired prodigiously, dazzled him by recording his first composition. "Riverboat Shuffle," for the Gennett label. Subsequently, when the Paul Whiteman Victor of his "Washboard Blues" sold far beyond his most youthfully intemperate expectations, he made up his mind to become a full-time songwriter. It was a salutary decision, for since then he has composed the music to such memorabilia as "Stardust," "Lazy Bones," "Georgia on My Mind," "Rockin' Chair," "One Morning in May," "Snowball,""Lazy River,""Small Fry," "In the Still of the Night," "Judy," "Two Sleepy People," "Skylark," "The Nearness of You," "Old Buttermilk Sky," "Doctor, lawyer, Indian Chief,""Ivy," "Memphis in June,""Blue Orchids,""Hong Kong Blues," "I Get Along Without You Very Well," "New Orleans," "Baltimore Oriole," "Winter Moon" and "Ballad In Blue." As if that were not enough, though, he has managed to bolster his reputation by being a fairly ubiquitous (and almost invariably engaging) performer, not only on radio, television and phonograph records, but also in such motion pictures as Young Man with a Horn, Canyon Passage. The Best Years of Our Lives, Johnny Angel and To Have and Have Not (in which, by the way, he miraculously succeeded in lending individuality to a role almost infringingly in direct apostolic succession to Dooley Wilson's Sam in Casablanca).


Everything considered, it strikes me as enormously reassuring that an individual who in bygone years made records with men of approximately his own age, background and attitude should be sufficiently uninstitutional to record with a group of musicians (with one exception) so lately undiapered that several of them had not yet been born when "Stardust "was becoming the theme song of a whole era. To me, the results of this collaboration sound absolutely marvelous. How they will sound to Hugues Panassie*, however, may be rather a different story. [*Panassie was a French Jazz musician/critic who basically had little use for modern Jazz.]


I wonder what Hugues Panassie's reaction will be to the lovely, understated instrumental stuff behind and between Carmichael's singing — to Art Pepper's alto saxophone, Don Fagerquist's trumpet. Jimmy Rowles's piano, Harry Klee's flute and Johnny Mandel's arrangements. (I omit mention of Harry Edison, one of the chief participants, because once upon a time he played with Count Basie and I would therefore imagine he could be faulted by Panassie only on the grounds of the company he keeps in this album.) I hasten to state that this is no gratuitous crack, which is why I should probably explain that I was a Panassie man even before Bullets Durgom was a band-boy and just about the time that Le Poivre Martin was running the bases like no other wild horse of the Osage in history. As a matter of fact, if memory serves me, it was in 1931 that the monsieur himself persuaded me to abandon the Harvard backfield and become a regular contributor to a wilful little French periodical called Jazz-Tango-Dancing could not have cared less whether the hell I punted on third clown or not. As its guiding light, its father confessor, its raison d'etre really, M. Panassie was simply superb — sensitive, informed, communicative, dedicated, stimulating, and, above all, not the slightest bit tactful. Indeed, in those headstrong years, he was, I think, as provocative and, more often than not, as competent a jazz critic as has ever raised his voice in a Down Beat poll. And as time went by and his book, Le Jazz Hot (literal translation: Le Jazz Chaud), was published in this country and (without any connection whatsoever) people started shagging shamelessly in the aisles of a movie cathedral in Times Square, he — M. Panassie, naturellement! — became an institution. That was all to the good, and, God wot, it still would be if only he had not allowed himself to become so damned institutional! I think somebody should inform mon capitaine that we employ the T-formation these enlightened days.


A week or so ago I received a copy (complimentary!) of a hook called Guide to Jazz ("Valuable information," says the jacket blurb, "on every aspect of jazz, by Hugues Panassie. author of Le Jazz Hot, and Madeleine Gautier.") Inasmuch as I was soon to commence setting down these observations, I thought I'd better have a look at what Papa Panassie had to report about Art Pepper, Johnny Mandel, Jimmy Rowles. Harry Klee and Don Fagerquist. As it turned out, my old squadron leader seems never to have heard of them. At any rate, their names do not appear in Guide to Jazz or, as the expression goes, Sonny Tufts! I do not mind saying that I find this appalling. There is, of course, line upon line about the likes of Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong, which is as it should be, for the Ellington band, after all, is as incandescent as they come and Louis is a perpetual pure blue flame and, to my ears, no jazz record of the past decade was any more exciting and enduring than his "Mack the Knife." Still and all, though, a guide — a truly eclectic and informative guide — should be mindful of the fact that any art form progresses and that, as it does, it breeds bright new voices. I think that Panassie should realize, at infuriatingly long last, that many of the new, even the experimental, forms are now being absorbed into the mainstream of jazz and that Gerry Mulligan and Pee Wee Russell have more to say to each other than he, Panassie, would like to believe. In any event, it is true that the progressives — the moderns, the cool ones, or what you will — have modified their radicalism and, in doing so, grown close to the basic jazz. In the course of this, they have broadened, enriched and revitalized an art form that, like any other, cannot endure by remaining stagnant, by sitting back and preserving the status quo.
Hoagy Sings Carmichael, which utilizes eleven musicians and Carmichael, was recorded in Los Angeles at the Forum Theatre, a large legitimate house with excellent acoustics. Carmichael feels that the background in the modern idiom — the fresh instrumental voices and the imaginative Mandel arrangements — stimulated him to sing differently and perhaps better than ever before. The highly contemporary accompaniment, he says, made him feel younger, a fact that I think will be immediately obvious to anyone acquainted with his records of other years. I also think that it is equally obvious that he might have done much to inspire the boys in the band, as the saying goes.


There is great, great beauty and talent in this album. For one thing, the Mandel arrangements are marvels of unobtrusiveness designed to highlight the singing. Indeed, subtle is the word for the whole enterprise. Although I dislike programmatic album notes — notes, that is, that inform you, rather patronizingly, what you should like, and so forth — I'm afraid that I cannot resist a few observations along such lines. One is that Art Pepper, who has been away from music for much too long a time, is simply superlative, with bite to his attack, body to his tone and a disciplined architecture to his improvisation. He is, mon capitaine Panassie notwithstanding, a great alto saxophonist. As for Harry Edison, well, there has never been a time when his playing failed to move me deeply. But the other trumpeter, Don Fagerquist, who takes solos in "Skylark," "Winter Moon," "Rocking' Chair" and "Ballad In Blue," was new to me. I think he's simply fine. And so, for that matter, is Jimmy Rowles, who plays so sensitively in, among other things, "Two Sleepy People."


But enough of this sort of thing. I'm beginning to sound as dogmatic as Pappa Panassie.”
— George Frazier
Original liner notes


Saturday, August 7, 2021

Johnny Mandel on Sinatra, Shirley and the Singers: Part 5 - The Smithsonian Interview

 © Copyright ® Steven Cerra, copyright protected; all rights reserved.



The following is excerpted from the JOHNNY MANDEL [1925-2020] NEA Jazz Master (2011) interview that was conducted by Bill Kirchner on April 20-21, 1995 in New York City. The 179 page transcript is in the Archives Center, National Museum of American History of the Smithsonian which can be reached at www.archivescenter@si.edu.


This part of the interview talks about his work with Frank Sinatra, Shirley Horn and other vocalists and is very revealing in terms of Johnny’s ability to adapt his composing and arranging skills to a wide variety of both personal and professional situations and requirements. 


This adaptability, one that plays to an artist’s strengths while offsetting their weaknesses, was one of the main reasons for Johnny’s enduring success in the business of commercial and popular music.


As with the previous postings, please be patient as Bill and Johnny have a tendency to wander all over the place during the course of the interview. And be sure to stick around for the planned Mandel & Miles collaboration.


“Kirchner: Let's talk a bit more about the Sinatra album. 


Mandel: Okay.


Kirchner: One thing that struck me as it being a particularly difficult assignment is there were no tunes that were ballads, there were no tunes that were really up, the most they seem to be medium slow to medium and it struck me it must've been a really hard assignment to write say ten or twelve charts all at approximately the same tempo.


Mandel: Yeah, there were a few charts in there that I did not write. 


Kirchner: Oh really? 


Mandel: Yeah. 


Kirchner: Which ones?


Mandel:  I didn't have time. Oh, I didn't write, "Be Careful, It's My Heart,' didn't write... I wrote only parts of some charts. I didn't write, "I've Got My Love to Keep Me Warm," I don't think, oh I wrote some parts of it, you can recognize what I did, and what I didn't, I think if you're familiar with. When I'd really get in a hurry and I was so slow because Sinatra quite frankly had me psyching myself out because I wanted to do that job so right so badly that I took about three, four times as long on a chart as I should've and I ran into a lot of difficulty. And as a result some of it I had to farm out at the last minute just to get it on the stands and…


Kirchner: How did you get the call for it in the first place?


Mandel: Oh, he'd heard some stuff I'd done for Vic Damone, he'd heard stuff for David Allyn, you know he'd heard about me. He'd go into nightclubs and wanted to know who wrote those charts and they'd be me, that kind of stuff,


Kirchner: He's one of the few singers I’ve ever heard in concert who announces the names of all the arrangers.


Mandel: Yeah, what a gentleman, God bless him because nobody does, does Mel Torme? Does he announce himself?

[They both laugh]


Mandel: You're right, nobody does, even Tony [Bennett] I don't think does as a rule.


Kirchner: No.


Mandel: No. I think Nat Cole did, you know as they say, "It don't cost you nothing," and it'd be really nice if more people would.


Kirchner: It's just a gracious gesture.


Mandel: It is, you'd think Natalie [Cole] would've listened to her old man but no. But she sure can sing.


Kirchner: How did you collaborate with Sinatra on getting the album together? Did...


Mandel: Oh, he told me what tunes he wanted to do, we picked out keys, he didn't like to rehearse, ever, he hates rehearsing. And it went like clockwork you know, I found him very easy and I found him to be a total gentleman all the way through.


Kirchner: Does he want to do complete takes or does he... 


Mandel: Yes.


Kirchner: No splices?


Mandel: The only problem we ever had with each other was when I made him do, "You and the Night and the Music," over. He wanted to go home, it was the last tune of the date and there was a huge fat clam in the trumpets, in fact [Conrad] Gozzo [lead trumpet] made it. And...


Kirchner: So you couldn't hide it?


Mandel: I couldn't let it go and he already had two girls on each arm he's like, "Hey, come on let's go home and boogie, let's get out of here Charlie," and I said, "Ah-ah," and he didn't like that at all. He had to stay and do another take because - he didn't like it, because he puts all his energy into that previous take you know. He's a kamikaze singer, he can't really - he hates to rehearse because there's no pressure on him, he needs to have the entourage, not because he needs the entourage he just likes to have a lot of people really scrutinizing him on dates, he needs a crowd to work to. He sounds like a different singer when you've got him alone in the room and he's uncomfortable singing, it's almost like he doesn't really enjoy singing often, for its own sake. But when he gets up in front of an audience it's such a challenge that he mentally just makes it happen, you know, he's got that strong a mind that he could make the whole thing take place. You know only in the last several years or ten years or so, since the instrument's been failing him can't he do it, but you know he'd be in bad shape, hoarse and all that kind of thing and he'd get out there and sounded wonderfully and you knew it was strictly through mental control that he'd do it. And Streisand has much the same approach to singing in that way, they don't sing anything alike but she's just that strong, she's that strongly fixed mentally, she makes it happen.


Kirchner: Although ironically she got intense stage fright and didn't perform in public for twenty years.


Mandel: That's right.


Kirchner: That's the big difference between her and Sinatra.


Mandel: Well, that's true.


Kirchner: But as far as the mental processes that sounds very plausible with both of them.


Mandel: Um-hm, this happens to singers you know, one very fine singer who is very underrated because of the image that she cultivated was Doris Day, who got so paranoid about performing she used to — you know I knew her in the bands [laughs] it reminds me of a great line Oscar Levant used to use, "I knew Doris Day before she was a virgin."

[They both laugh]


Mandel: And she was really a nice girl and a wonderful singer but she got so paranoid, you know every night she'd sing in front of bands, in front of all kinds of people and was totally uninhibited but something happened along the way to where she got so she wouldn't even sing with the band on record dates. She used to, as soon as they allowed overdubbing she would send everybody home and then do her vocals by herself and never performed in person. You never saw her going to Vegas and anything like that and she always could sing, she was very much of an Ella Fitzgerald type of clone. In fact Natalie sounds amazing like her at times, Natalie Cole.


Kirchner: Interesting.


Mandel: We made a record of, "The Christmas Song," and she sounds like Doris Day on that thing.


Kirchner: Would this be an appropriate time to just talk about who your favorite singers are, you've been mentioning a few.


Mandel: Oh yeah, Peggy Lee for openers. Shirley Horn, I like singers that sound like they are singing in your ear. I don't like belters, particularly  - that's a personal... but I can admire belters, I just don't like being yelled at, especially in love songs.


Kirchner: They're not much fun to write for either.


Mandel: Some are better than others but I don't see how anybody can get any intimacy when they're singing that loud, it's an old tradition of singing, hit the fourth balcony type of singing. And some people think that's a great thing to do, well it's an endurance contest that's for sure, it's hard on the instrument. But I always like the Billie Holiday, Peggy Lee, Carmen McRae, good straight-forward singers that are very musical, Jeri Southern, I mean these are the kinds of singers that personally I like the best. Sinatra I don't think has ever had a peer, nobody even comes close. Sinatra, Tony, Bing Crosby was wonderful in his own way, he actually blazed the trail, he was the first really good microphone singer.


Kirchner: Now you were talking about Shirley Horn, you came - Shirley is a relatively recent collaboration of yours so I'd like to talk about that a bit.


Mandel: Okay, we're getting ahead of ourselves but that's all right. 


Kirchner: Well we seem to be skipping around a bit... 


Mandel: Sure.


Kirchner: But as long as I keep my druthers and cover what... 


Mandel: Okay.


Kirchner: Should be covered, I don't mind if you don't.


Mandel: I don't mind. Shirley was as recently as 1990,I think.


Kirchner:  '90, '91 I believe.


Mandel: Yeah probably and I'd gladly do it again and so would she.


Kirchner: It's just that Verve [Records] has to come up with the appropriate budget of course.


Mandel: Yeah.


Kirchner: But I think the record you did for her, Here's to Life,  if she never does anything else like it, that's the record that's going to be what she's remembered for more than anything.


Mandel: I'd like to think so, I'd love to think so, although she's made many wonderful records. I love the I Thought About You: Live at Vine St. record.


Kirchner: Yeah.


Mandel: Shirley is so special, you know you just, I don't see how you could do... well you could do her badly but I sure wouldn't want to.

[They both laugh]


Kirchner: Most of that was done with her laying down trio tracks and you writing right?


Mandel:  Oh yeah, because she can't really divorce herself from the piano. We did two tracks without her playing and she's never recorded like that, except back in the early days when Quincy recorded her, he didn't let her play. And God anybody who doesn't let her play is a... well anyway when she did these two tunes, "Here's to Life," and, "Where do You Start," she didn't know what to do with her hands. She wears these little gloves that she plays with and she kept taking them off and putting them on, and she went crazy trying to not play and to sing [laughs] so all the other tracks on that album she did lay down her tracks and then I just took the orchestra and went everywhere that she wasn't, is the best way I can describe the technique I used for writing that. Stuff that would work against what she did but complement it.

Kirchner: And according to Joel Siegel's liner notes you had given her the tape, the Mike Lang tape that goes with your songbook.


Mandel: Yeah.


Kirchner: So that she knew the voicing's that you wanted on your tunes. 


Mandel: Not particularly, well I gave her the songbook. 


Kirchner: Yeah,

Mandel: No, not particularly, besides Shirley has her own ideas, very firm ideas about chords herself. We just happen to fortunately think quite alike when it comes to voicing but we disagreed quite a few times on chord choices but she is unswayable, you go with her. And it's right for her, if it's right for her it's right for me is how I feel about it. With some people I'll fight about things like that, with Shirley I won't because her instincts are so sound.


Kirchner: So she recorded as I recall what, three of your tunes, she did on that particular record...


Mandel: On that one, yeah.


Kirchner: "A Time for Love", "Where do you Start?" and my all time favorite version of, "Quietly There."


Mandel: Yeah, yeah.


Kirchner: Now as I recall Miles was supposed to play on that album but died before the date, right?


Mandel: That's right, he was supposed to play on, "A Time for Love," he was supposed to play all the places that Wynton ended up playing on, Wynton Marsalis.


Kirchner: So, that would have been your chance, the chance that you never had to work with Miles.


Mandel: Well Miles and I were going to do an album too.


Kirchner: Really?


Mandel: Yeah.


Kirchner: When?


Mandel: Just shortly before he died.


Kirchner: How much...


Mandel: We were finally getting together.


Kirchner: Really?


Mandel: Yeah, and it just never happened just like this never happened.


Kirchner: But tell me more.


Mandel: Well... it was gonna be another one of the type of Gil Evans type things that he had done and I was gonna be very careful that I wouldn't be the E-Flat Gil Evans you know, you don't want to, that's somebody... following Gil Evans you gotta be very careful because it was done right the first time, [laughs] And I wouldn't try to really do that, we weren't gonna remake any of that stuff, it was gonna do new stuff, it was gonna be a whole project unto itself.


Kirchner: What kind of material would you have done? 


Mandel: Hadn't gotten that far.


Kirchner: It's interesting that he wanted to do, I mean at the time he was in the late 80s he was pretty much wrapped up with pop, with pop funk things.


Mandel: Well Miles as a person if you look at his career, he would go through a period, like he had the small band quintet, then he went through the Gil Evans period with large orchestras, then he went into more funk type quintet's later on and then you know into the Coltrane era and all that kind of thing and then got into the Bitches Brew period and in other words Miles never liked to repeat himself or do anything again. But finally towards the end of his life even though we didn't realize it he was starting to - Quincy kept bugging him about this 'cause it was gonna be on Qwest and wanted to get Miles to — you know and Miles just never liked to look back, he wasn't that kind of a guy and that's why he shied away from doing things he had done before not because he didn't think there were valid he just liked doing new things. He was similar to Gil that way, to Gil Evans.


Kirchner: Now did you talk with Miles directly about this project.


Mandel: Really only had one conversation, it was over the phone, but we agreed, we wanted to do it.


Kirchner: When was this around 1990 or so?


Mandel: Yeah, right about.


Kirchner: Oh, that's...


Mandel: I really wished we had done it,


Kirchner: That's tragic that that didn't happen.


Mandel: Well it is, but it didn't happen, so you know.


Kirchner: An unfair but interesting question, what kind of instrumentation do you think you would have used, would you use strings, what would you have used?


Mandel: It would have been dictated by what kind of material we did, what I wrote and all that. That would have dictated it. Yeah, chances are I would have used strings, might have used a similar type of instrumentation to what I used in The Sandpiper, or possibly on the Sanborn [David] album [Pearls] but it would have been a totally different kind of album. Probably a lot more esoteric, I'm not sure where it would have gone, which is why I can't say what instruments I'd have used. It's too early in the game when you don't even have your material to try and decide what kind of a setting you're gonna use for it.


Kirchner: Of course. Well speaking of The Sandpiper, why don't we jump back to say the early 60s.


Mandel: 1964. 


Kirchner: Yes. 


Mandel: Alright.


Kirchner: Or, in fairness that you said after you'd done, I Want to Live! you had done TV writing, you had done a couple of B movies.


Mandel: I did a lot of vocal albums. 


Kirchner: And we've discussed those.


Mandel: And really... then did the Andy Williams, I was gonna say Andy Warhol, Andy Williams and right after the Andy Williams thing, I really got connected up with Filmways [Production Company] and got a shot to do The Americanization of Emily, a very good picture, a chance to write a song, something I hadn't foreseen. And my first song of any consequence, even though when I look back now I had written songs that could've been songs. But I never thought of myself as a songwriter.


Kirchner: "Just a Child," goes under that category doesn't it?


Mandel: Yeah, and stuff from, I Want to Live!, "Barbara's theme,'" you know several themes that could've taken lyrics.


Kirchner: Oh, that reminds me...


Mandel: "Black Nightgown," a lot of those could've taken lyrics.


Kirchner: Three of those tunes, "Barbara's Theme," and, "Black Nightgown," and the theme from, “I Want to Live!” you did charts for Gerry Mulligan on.

Mandel: Yeah.


Kirchner: That Mulligan recorded with a concert jazz band.


Mandel: Yeah, I think so, right, yeah.


Kirchner: So basically, he just called you and said I like all these tunes that I played on the score or heard on the score and I'd like you to do charts for my band?


Mandel: Yeah, it was it, and I was around New York at that time, so I went and rehearsed the band and all that stuff.


Kirchner: Apparently he brought Holman east to work in New York...


Mandel: That's right; Bill was with us at the same time.


Kirchner: So you just did those three charts then? You didn't do anything else?


Mandel: Yeah, that's all 'cause I'd left New York after that, went back home to California.


Kirchner: But he recorded all three of them.


Mandel: Um-hm.


Kirchner: And they all sounded terrific.


Mandel: Great, well with those players, good God, you could've written stuff that wasn't very good and it would've sounded terrific.


Kirchner: Yeah, Stan Getz later recorded, "Barbara's Theme."


Mandel: That's another thing I didn't know, you have to watch Stan Getz at all times or he's libel to record something of yours.

[They both laugh]


Kirchner: Have you heard that record? 


Mandel: No, I haven't.


Kirchner: It's going to be reissued shortly; it was on an album called, Voices, that was done with a rhythm section with Herbie Hancock and Ron Carter and Grady Tate.


Mandel: Oh, I'd like to have heard that combination.


Kirchner: And a chorus with Claus Ogerman arrangements.


Mandel: I'd really like to have heard that, a chorus and Claus plus strings?


Kirchner: No, no strings, just a chorus and rhythm section.


Mandel: Well if Claus wrote the vocal parts I would've liked it.


Kirchner: Yeah it'll be out in June.


Mandel: Sounds like a Creed Taylor production.


Kirchner: Definitely. From the mid-60s and as a matter of fact, what the only...


Mandel: Was it like a Blossom Dearie type chorus?


Kirchner: No it's...


Mandel: 'Cause she was very good at choruses, you remember she had the Blue Keys over in Paris.


Kirchner: Um-hm.


Mandel: She knew how to write for voices.


Kirchner: Yeah, it was Hipper than say a Ray Conniff type concept, or something like that,,,


Mandel: Oh, oh, well, you know...


Kirchner: And they did some good tunes, well they did, "Barbara's Theme," although they mistitled it, "I Want to Live," but they did that, they did, "Where Flamingos Fly," the John Benson Brooks tune.


Mandel: Oh yeah...


Kirchner: "I Didn't Know What Time it Was."


Mandel: The one Gil Evans made such a magnificent record with Jimmy Knepper.


Kirchner: Yeah.


Mandel: Yeah.


Kirchner: And one before that with Helen Merrill that he did.


Mandel: Oh yeah, Helen Merrill I was in love with, not -I didn't know her but just her singing. That's another singer I used to love. Her, Jeri Southern, you know the kind of singer, Julie London in her day, I like those kinds of singers, the understated ones.


Kirchner: That's a dying art it would seem,


Mandel: You know, what amazes me is, I hear a singer like Sade, she does - if you look at the pop market, she does everything wrong. Have you ever listened to her particularly?


Kirchner: Yes.


Mandel: She's a jazz singer, although nobody will call her that. She does everything, she sings like that, I like that kind of a singer. And for some reason she's a huge hit and I don't understand it, because a lot of other singers get out there and try and do that and fall flat. And yet she resorts to 

no kind of theatrics, she just sings like that. You know the records aren't really great.


Kirchner: The material isn't that great.”


To be continued.