Showing posts with label zoot sims. Show all posts
Showing posts with label zoot sims. Show all posts

Wednesday, September 8, 2021

Al Cohn and Zoot Sims at The Half Note [From the Archives]

 © -Steven Cerra, copyright protected; all rights reserved.



"Well, listening to [Al and Zoot’s] music takes me back ... which is OK because — let's face it — the past is home to me. It's home to me and other surviving musicians from Zoot and Al's generation, and I speculate on how quaint we must seem now to the younger people who have never been interested in the music we play. We're the guys with the half-diminished chords and tritone substitutions who know 'all the tunes' and like to talk about swinging. We're today's 'old-time musicians', like the polka-band musicians of my childhood. And just like Whoopee John or the Six Fat Dutchmen or Frankie Yankovic, we're keeping alive the music of the 'old country', except that unlike those polka guys, we come from various racial and national backgrounds and the term 'old country' no longer applies to someplace overseas."
- Dave Frishberg, Jazz Pianist

Has there ever been a more engaging tenor sax duo than Al Cohn and Zoot Sims?

Thank goodness they had such a long association and that much of it was recorded.

The Jazz world would have been a much poorer place without Al and Zoot’s “... elegant interplay, silk-smooth textures, cheerful swinging, bodacious unisons and thumping good individual solos. It may not dig all that deep, but when you are listening to  [them] you tend to wonder why more Jazz records don’t have this feel-good factor. ….” [paraphrased from Richard Cook and Brian Morton, The Penguin Guide to Jazz on CD, 6th Ed.].

The editorial staff at JazzProfiles found this essay on Al and Zoot in the February 2005 edition of late Gene Lees’ Jazzletter and we thought we shared it with you

Bright Nights at The Half-Note: Legend of Zoot and Al

“The year 1962-63 was a dark one for me. I had dumped my job in Chicago as editor of Down Beat and moved to New York, pretty much flat broke, and that year was a crazy quilt of contradictions, of deep depressions and unexpected soaring of the spirit, of successes and discoveries and new friendships, some of which I treasure to this day, whether that friend is alive, like Phil Woods and Dave Frishberg and Bill Crow and Roger Kellaway, or gone, like Zoot Sims and Al Cohn and Art Farmer and Gerry Mulligan and Bill Evans and Jack Whittemore and Jimmy Koulouvaris.

Among my best memories of that time were two or three weekends spent at Phil Woods' home in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, and nights at the Half Note listening to Zoot Sims and Al Cohn, who could have inspired Zasu Pitts, Mischa Auer, Ned Sparks, Virginia O'Brien, and even Buster Keaton to smiles and even laughter.
Jack Whittemore was an agent and Jimmy Koulouvaris owned and operated a New York bar called Jim and Andy's on 48th Street just west of Sixth Avenue. Almost no one patronized the place except musicians, and any jazz fan who inadvertently wandered in could look the length of the bar and see a lot of the most famous names he had ever admired. Jimmy Koulouvaris was a Greek-American former Seabee, a veteran of the Pacific, who liked musicians, and who extended them credit on food and drink that kept many a soul alive through lean times. Jack Whittemore had been the head of the Shaw Agency, but quit to book jazz groups on his own. Agents are often detested, Jack was loved. He set a lot of careers in motion, in effect starting the Horace Silver group, and doing much for the career of Stan Getz.

Stan uttered one of the most cogent bits of jazz criticism I have ever heard. Asked for his idea of what would make the perfect tenor saxophone player, he said (in the presence of Lou Levy, who passed it on to me): "My technique, Zoot's time, and Al's ideas." Zoot 'n' Al were two of the most faithful denizens of Jim and Andy's. Both were famous among the regulars for humor, and Al had a new joke — no, three or four of them! — every afternoon, when he'd come in from one studio gig or another. We all used to wonder where he got them.

Al was an adept of unpremeditated wisecracks. Two of the most famous:

A derelict approached him on the street, saying, "Sir, I'm an alcoholic, and I need a drink." Impressed, presumably, by such candor, Al — a pretty stalwart drinker himself, as we all were in those days — peeled off a little loot and said, as he handed the man the cash, "Wait a minute, how do I know you won't spend this on food?"

Al played a gig in Copenhagen, where they have a brand of beer called Elephant. He was asked when he checked in at the club, "Would you like an Elephant beer?"

"No," Al said. "I drink to forget."


I just remembered another one, which has assumed the proportions of myth; I presume it's true because it sounds like him. Someone asked if he played Coltrane's Giant Steps. Al said, "Yes, but I use my own changes."

Man, that's fast.

Zoot was just as funny, but in a different style. More incidents in the legend of Zoot and Al:

Zoot, who was not renowned for sartorial splendor — one could say he usually looked rumpled — came into Jim and Andy's (known as J&A's or The Gymnasium) about eleven o'clock one morning dressed neatly in suit and tie. Somebody said,
"You're looking pretty dapper this morning. What happened?

"I don't know," Zoot said. "I woke up this way."

One day, after playing late the night before, Zoot turned up in Jim and Andy's, said he had a record date ahead of him and asked if anybody had any kind of upper pill to keep him going. The wife of another musician said that she did, got the pill out and handed it to him. Zoot said, "Is this pretty strong stuff?"

She said, "Well, you could break it in half and throw the rest away.
Zoot said, "What? Throw that good stuff away? Do you realize there are people in Europe sleeping!"

Andre Previn, another of Zoot's great admirers, told me the next story. Years ago Andre played a Hollywood record date for John Graas, a classical French horn prayer who had a certain (and by now faded) vogue as a "jazz composer" and recorded some LPs I found impenetrable. One of his compositions had space for a solo over some difficult and pretentious chord changes. When one musician after another had a cut at it and crashed, the solo was assigned to Zoot, who sailed through it with characteristic insouciance. At the end of the tune, someone asked,
"Hey Zoot, how did you do that?" to which he replied, "I don't know what you guys were doing, but I just played “I Got Rhythm. "

Al Cohn, as a consequence of an infection, had lost an eye. The record producer Jack Lewis also had one eye. One night Jack, Al, and Zoot were driving back in the rain from some place or other. Zoot was zonked out in the back seat. He stirred, leaned over the back of the front seat, and said, "I hope you guys are keeping both eyes on the road."

Zoot-n-Al were inseparable names, like Pratt and Whitney, Vic and Sade, Lum and Abner, Chase and Sanborn, Laurel and Hardy, and Gilbert and Sullivan, not to mention Ipana and Sal Hepatica. There have been several of these relationships in jazz, Duke Ellington and Billy Strayhorn, Bix Beiderbecke and Frank Trumbauer, Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker among them.

If Jim and Andy's was the diurnal habitat of Zoot and Al, in the evenings, much of the year, it was the Half Note, an Italian restaurant in the South Village, at Hudson and Spring Streets, a district of old warehouses and factories abandoned at night, their windows all dark. I still can see the old brick cobblestones given texture by the light of the lamp at the corner and the neon sign, a half note, above the restaurant.

It was a family operation…..

Two groups operated almost as house bands, one led by Bob Brookmeyer and Clark Terry, with Phil Woods a frequent member, the other by Zoot and Al.
Phil recalled, "Brookmeyer used to bring a football to work and insisted on playing catch across the traffic."

Bill Crow wrote:

"The Half Note moved to 54th Street in 1972. It lost much of its ambience in the transplant and went out of business before long. The Canterinos went their various ways, as did the groups that had made so much music for them. But for those of us who were part of the family, the memories are poignant. It takes no effort at all to re-imagine the old club and fill it with all the good musicians who played there and all the friends who used to crowd the bars and tables. In those empty streets cobbled with red brick, it seemed, with its warm lights and the smell of its food and sound of its music, a haven in the night."

Phil Woods said, "God, I miss Frank Canterino and the meatball sandwiches. When they moved uptown and they all wore tuxes, I knew the writing (or pizza sauce) was on the wall. You can't serve bebop pizza in a tux!"

For myself, I miss the eggplant parmigiana, although I must admit those meatball sandwiches were pretty groovy. Try saying "groovy" to some young people; you're likely to get a bemused expression, as you will if you say phonograph or record player or LP.

Roger Kellaway was the pianist, much of the time, with the two groups. Sometimes Dave Frishberg was the pianist with Zoot and Al. Various bass players worked with them, but the drummer was usually Mousey Alexander.

In a liner note for a 2002 Verve CD reissue from a 1960 LP by Zoot and Al, titled You 'n' Me, Dave wrote, "Together and separately they were probably the most widely admired musicians I ever came across. I used to watch other musicians listen to them, and I remember how their faces would light up, and how they would burst into spontaneous cheering and howling. I think it might have been the drummer Jake Hanna who said, 'Everybody wants to either play like Zoot and talk like Al or play like Al and talk like Zoot….'

"If you were a piano player doing jazz work in New York in those years you couldn't ask for a more nourishing, more rewarding, experience than to play with Al and Zoot and their colleagues and friends and fans at the Half Note every night. You got to play with Jimmy Rushing on the weekends. And ninety dollars a week wasn't bad, especially if you supplemented it with rehearsing a singer or two. The point was that you could be involved, you could be included, you could be on the scene each night making music with two immortals in their prime. This was Zoot 'n' Al, man! This was jazz playing of the highest order and purity, the most serious and sublime joy. This is why you came to New York.


"During the bass solo, Al Cohn would drain the contents of a shot glass in one gulp, then, staring straight ahead, he would hold the glass with thumb and index finger at arm's length, shoulder level, and let it drop. Sonny or Mike would whirl and pluck the glass cleanly out of the air with barely a glance upward. Mousey Alexander would 'catch' the action with a cymbal crash. I never saw anybody miss.

"The shtick with the shot glass seemed to express the unflappable comic worldliness that was Al Cohn's personal magic. But it went deeper than that. When Al and Zoot played, they spoke straight to the music in each of us, player and listener alike. Somebody once remarked that when Zoot Sims starts to play, everything starts to sound better. I agreed and reminded him that Al Cohn need only enter the room to make it happen. What a thrill, what a privilege, to be on the stand with them."

There is an old jazz musician's story according to which when Bunny Berrigan was asked how he could play so well drunk, he replied, "Because I practice drunk." The remark is also attributed to Zoot. The story may be apocryphal. Yet it may be true.
Well, Zoot not only played well when he was drunk, he seemed to play better and better the more so he got. I can remember seeing him with a Woody Herman reunion band at the Monterey Festival. He was so loaded that he kept tilting in his chair, at one point leaning on Richie Kamuca (another of the missing) and then, tilting the other way, on Al Cohn. Woody tried to stand in front of him, to hide him from the audience, but wherever Woody would stand, Zoot tilted the other way. Finally came time for him to solo. He got up, made his way unsteadily downstage to the microphone, and played one of he most magnificent ballad solos one can imagine.

Roger Kellaway tells me that when Zoot got down to a low A-flat on the horn, you knew he was really drunk.

When Zoot and Al were at the Half Note, I'd sometimes go there with Gerry Mulligan or Paul Desmond or both. Zoot of course had played in Gerry's Concert Jazz Band, and Desmond was simply enthralled by Zoot's playing. Paul said once, "It has the sweet innocence of a baby's first steps. You can't care if he stumbles. The recovery is so charming."

Not to detract from anybody else's work, but oh did Zoot swing. His records are the best antidote for a dark day I know, along with those of Count Basic and Dizzy Gillespie.

Al Cohn was also a superb arranger, turning out countless charts back in the pre-synthesizer days when the New York (and Los Angeles and Chicago) recording studios were beehive busy with real live musicians recording real live arrangements by the likes of Johnny Mandel and Marion Evans and Sy Oliver and Claus Ogerman and Billy May and Marion Evans and Nelson Riddle and Gary McFarland and Peter Matz and God knows how many more. Those days are gone, and don't call me a pessimist for saying so. They are, factually, gone, and I cannot see in the future anything like the conditions, economic or esthetic, in which that music flourished. Al wrote for everything, including singers' record dates, Broadway musicals, and TV specials.

I guess I first became aware of Al and Zoot when they were with the Woody Herman Four Brothers band. If you lived through that era you can probably shut your eyes and hear that saxophone sound, three tenors and a baritone. If Woody wanted alto lead on something, he'd play it himself.

Zoot was born John Haley Sims, the son of vaudevillians, on October 29, 1925, in Inglewood, California. He had two brothers, Gene Sims, who played guitar, and Ray Sims, born in 1921, a really fine trombonist. The extended family included Roger Kellaway, who was at one time married to their cousin Patti, a singer. The family always considered Roger one of them. Zoot's family and, later, his friends, called him Jack. He got into some band or other whose leader though it would be cute to put "hip" nicknames on the music stands, and the stand Jack inherited had "Zoot" inscribed on it. It stuck forever as his professional name. I knew Ray before I knew Zoot. Ray was at the time with the Les Brown band, and I became friends with him and Wes Hensel, who played lead trumpet (and later headed the brass department at Berklee in Boston). Ray doubled as a vocalist, and he was very good at it. Whenever the band would come into Hamilton or Toronto, I'd be there. Contrary to legend, the first thing musicians seem to ask of local people is not where they can find a chick but where they can find a good restaurant. "The conversations on the band bus," Roger Kellaway confirmed, "were always about food." I was their guide to the eateries, which weren't much in those days before fancy foreign restaurants colonized even the smallest cities.

Zoot became a professional musician at fifteen, eventually playing with Bobby Sherwood, Sonny Dunham, and, after two years in the army, Benny Goodman. He was with the Herman band 1947-'49, which tenure brought him to fame as a soloist, using elements of Charlie Parker's playing in a style that derived largely from Lester Young. The Four Brothers band brought fame also to Stan Getz, of whom Zoot said in later years, "Stan is a whole bunch of interesting guys."

There is a deft description of Zoot's playing in the Leonard Feather-Ira Gitler Biographical Dictionary of Jazz: "Always a natural swinger, he brought a shimmering, mellow warmth to his ballad playing." Although he worked with various bands over the years, including the Mulligan Concert Jazz Band and Stan Kenton and he went on the legendary Benny Goodman tour of the Soviet Union, always there was that centripetal friendship with Al Cohn, a partnership that seemed to bring out the best in both of them.


Alvin Gilbert Cohn was born in New York City on November 24, 1925. I am often intrigued at the way friendships in jazz (and incidentally in theater too) go back to school years (Benny Golson and John Coltrane, for example) or even childhood.
Johnny Mandel said: "I was born in New York at 85th and West End Avenue at Queen of the Angels Hospital, or something like that, on November 23, 1925." Thus John had one day's seniority on this earth.

Mandel said, "I looked up to Al. I first met him when I was going to boarding school, New York Military Academy, up in Tarrytown. I was very much into music already and started writing. Al was playing with Paul Allen's band. There was a bunch of musicians in there that were very good. Nat Peck was in the band, and Lee Pockriss, who ended up writing Broadway musicals. The lead trumpet player, Jack Eagle, was telling me about this great arranger they had, Al Cohn. He said, 'Why don't you come over to a rehearsal?'

"They were playing Basie stocks and those things, and some arrangements by Al. I met Al and listened to what he was doing on songs like Where or When. He was playing different changes on the song. I had a band back at the school, and I went back, and I'd copy those changes. I remembered them. I played them with my band. Al never knew that.


"Later on, when I was out of school and a working musician, we'd sort of cross paths. When I'd play in a band, he'd been there ahead of me. I wrote for Woody Herman and Artie Shaw and he was in both those bands. I think we may have played together in some Georgie Auld bands. We worked in one band together, Henry Jerome. Leonard Garment and Alan Greenspan were in that band too at one time, and Al took Alan Greenspan's place.

"I admired everything Al did as an arranger. He was a great player too. I really wanted him to like what I did. He was sort of the guy in the back of my brain. I'd say, God, would he like this? I didn't have the arrogance to think, He should like me! I was listening to everyone and wondering if anything I did was good enough. We used to show each other things during the Nola rehearsal hall period, when everybody would jam forever.

"I think I used to resent him a lot because he was having such a great time, and I was so serious about music that I was struggling.

"I missed a lot in New York because I left the city in 1953 when I went with Count Basie, and then settled on the West Coast. I heard Zoot and Al down at the Half Note, but it would only be when I came into New York on something. Yeah!'"
Al Cohn worked for Joe Marsala when he was eighteen — and it is interesting to note how many of the best jazz musicians of his generation were full professionals by that age — then for Georgie Auld. Rejoined the Boyd Raeburn band in 1946, and went with Woody Herman in 1948.

Lou Levy, pianist with that band, recalled in a conversation with me in 1990:

"When I joined, Herbie Steward had been replaced by Al Cohn. So they had Al, Stan Getz, Zoot, and Serge Chaloff. The brass was Ernie Royal, Bernie Glow, Shorty Rogers, Irv Markowitz, and Stan Fishelson. The trombones were Bill Harris, Ollie Wilson, Bob Swift, and Earl Swope. Don Lamond was playing drums. Chubby Jackson was on bass. Terry Gibbs was playing vibes. Oh God, what a wonderful experience! I'd love to go through it again now that I know a few things. When you're in the midst of such greatness at such a young age, I don't know if you realize what you're involved in. I was nineteen. The magnitude! I don't know if I appreciated it. I didn't know how good these guys were yet.

"One thing was made evident to me right away. Everybody in the band was crazy for Al Cohn. When he played, there was sheer reverence as everybody turned their eyes and their ears toward him. When somebody else played, they just looked straight ahead. When Al Cohn played, it was always something special. You can ask anyone who's left from that band.

"Yesterday, for instance, I was out at Stan Getz's house at Malibu. He played a tape that Al Cohn did in Germany not very long before he died. The tune was Some Other Spring with a large orchestra. It's like it came from heaven, you can't believe how gorgeous it is. Stan still has that same reverence for Al. I remember in 1948 and '49, Stan would look up at Al with those blue eyes of his and just stare at him when he was playing. This is Stan Getz, and he's pretty snappy himself.

" I miss Al Cohn. And I remember how all the guys in Woody's band looked at him."

"That band was pretty strung out when you joined it," I said. "Woody told me some stories about it. Some of them funny, some of them not so funny. And both Zoot and Al told me about it too. That's how Al lost his eye, he told me. It was from an infection from a bad needle. He said, 'Losing your eye, that's a pretty good reason to quit.' And Zoot told me he got into a car with a girl he was going with and drove to California. He said he withdrew in the motel rooms along the way. And they both stayed straight."

"Well," Lou said. "Heroin was the drug of the period. Pot was already old hat. Cab Calloway was singing songs about it and making jokes about pot. And Harry the Hipster. Heroin was a serious habit, but that was the drug that everybody was using at the time. I got into it."


"The guys who got into it either got out of it or they aren't here."

"Pretty much. There are a few who are still around who are into it. We don't have to name names, we all know who they are. I was not serious about it, not serious like some of the guys who aren't here any more. I got out. It took me a while. I finally just got disgusted with myself and gave it up."

"Woody told me once that he was so naive he couldn't figure out why his band kept falling asleep."


Lou laughed. "Oh Woody! I remember Woody's expression. He'd just look at us! He didn't even shake his head. He'd just look. He never said anything to anybody that I can recall."

"I know he tangled with Serge Chaloff about it once," I said. "Serge being the band druggist. And yet it never affected the quality of the music."

"Oh! The quality of the music was very important to them. They were very conscious of their image. What they were doing in their hotel rooms or on the bus or at intermissions was one thing, but on the bandstand they were real music-conscious. We'd all look for the opportunities to play. Sometimes Woody would get off the bandstand for the last set and go home. We'd drag out all the arrangements we really loved to play, Johnny Mandel's Not Really the Blues, and play them. There was so much we loved to play in the band anyway, Neal Hefti and Al Cohn stuff. The soloists were always at their best. In a theater, we'd find a piano in some room down in the bowels of the theater and jam between shows. Al, Zoot, Stan, everybody. Always looking to play. Whatever else suffered, the music never did. The band sounded healthy.We may have had some unhealthy habits, but the music sounded healthy. Great vitality, great oneness."

The quintet Al and Zoot formed in 1957 went on into the 1980s.

It is little noticed that many jazz musicians have been good singers, among them Buddy Rich (who would have preferred a career as a singer and like Zoot came from a vaudeville family), Ray Sims, of course, Cannonball Adderley, Jack Sheldon, Chet Baker, Dizzy Gillespie, Richard Boone, Jack Teagarden, Blossom Dearie, Gerry
Mulligan, Dave Frishberg, and four pianists I think of instantly whose abilities as singers overshadowed their talent as pianists, Jeri Southern, Sarah Vaughan, Carmen McRae, and Nat Cole. And trumpet players beginning with Louis Armstrong and continuing through Roy Eldrige, Ray Nance, Hot Lips Page, and Doc Cheatham, have done a certain amount of singing, including Clark Terry, in part to rest their chops and let the blood flow back into their lips, as Clark once pointed out to me. But I think they do it because they like it: it adds that extra dimension of words. And most songwriters sing, and sometimes, as in the cases of Alan Bergman, Alan Jay Lerner, and Harold Aden, have been very good at it. An interesting phenomenon: so many jazz players, though they have had all the equipment in the world for vocal improvisation, have sung straightforwardly, staying close to the melody and letting the words breathe through, as in the cases of Chet Baker, Gerry Mulligan, and Nat Cole. Well Zoot was one of these people.

In late 1984, Roger Kellaway and I had a one-week gig at the Chateau Laurier in Ottawa. We noticed that Zoot was closing the night before we opened, so we flew up a day early to hang with him and listen. He was very weak by now, and played sitting down. I was particularly partial to his soprano saxophone, and he played a lot of it that evening. And he sang. Beautifully. At the end of his first set he joined us, and he said, "Hey, Gene, I didn't know you could sing."

I said, "Well, Jack, I didn't know you could either."

I never saw him after that night.

I last talked to Al Cohn on the telephone. He was in the hospital. Al was married to Flo Handy, who had been married to George Handy. She had put out the word somehow that Al wanted to hear from friends. I called him, somewhat hesitantly, and we talked for a little while.

Zoot died in New York City on March 25, 1985; Al in East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania, on February 15,1988, both of cancer. So many jazz musicians have succumbed to this scourge that I have wondered if this is a consequence of playing in smoky nightclubs. Even those (few) who didn't smoke were subject to enough second-hand smoke to stagger an elephant. Later, Flo told me that my call to Al meant a lot to him, which surprised me, but I have learned never to hesitate to call friends in that condition.

And when my dear friend Sahib Shihab was dying, I went to the hospital several days running, and sat by the bed, just holding his hand. Dying is a lonely business.

Zoot would have turned eighty on October 29, 2005, Al would have turned eighty on November 24. On a compromise date, November 5, a celebration was held at East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania, where the Al Cohn Memorial Jazz Collection resides, gathering pertinent material on their careers and other important musical documentation. I couldn't be there, but toward the end of the afternoon event they played a CD of an interview I did with Johnny Mandel about Al; it lasted nine minutes. The panelists and audience told Al and Zoot stories, including those I have just recounted, which are common currency of those of us who knew those two guys.



Phil Woods wrote me:
"What a party! Louise Sims [Zoot's widow], Maddie Gibson [widow of Dick Gibson, who used to hold the Colorado jazz party at which Zoot and Al often played], Dave Frishberg, Bill Crow, Ira and Mary Jo Gitler — she did a great poster for the event — Joe Temperley, Dan Morgenstern, Stanley Kaye, Marvin Stamm, Eddie Bert, Dick Meldonian, damn fine alto man who was with Elliot Lawrence when Al was writing for the band, John Coates with Joe Cohn [Al's son], Bob Dorough, Bill Goodwin, Steve Gilmore, Wolgang Knittle — my neighbor — Lew Del Gotto, Bob Lark, a tenor conclave of a bunch of B-flat cats including Nelson Hill and Tom Hamilton, Sherry Maricle and Five Play, the Festival Orchestra with me — I'd just flown in from Salzburg, Austria — and much more, plus an enthusiastic audience of about 400 guests.

"All and Zoot would have been proud."

Bill Crow added: "It was a lovely day. Bob Bush, who is supervisor of the Al Cohn Memorial Jazz Collection, and his wife Narda pulled the whole thing together. It was nicely organized and everyone seemed happy to be there. The first event was the noontime seminar remembering Al and Zoot, with a panel of myself, Ira Gitler, Dan Morgenstern, Stanley Kaye, and Steve Gilmore. There were many of Al and Zoot's old friends and colleagues in the audience, so the storytelling flowed from the stage to the audience and back again. It was like Jim and Andy's without the booze. (There were lots of stories about booze, too).

"The afternoon concert went on at two. Bob Dorough sang a couple of his songs and then was joined by Dave Frishberg for their collaboration on I'm Hip. Next a band of old friends of Al and Zoot played: me, Ross Tompkins, Eddie Bert, Dick Meldonian, and Marvin Stamm, and the young drummer Marko Marcinko. I hadn't played with Ross for quite a few years, and enjoyed him a lot. We were followed by Katchie Cartwright who, accompanied at the piano by Eric Doney, sang a lovely selection of Flo Cohen's songs. They're remarkable and difficult songs, and Katchie rendered them perfectly. Dave Liebman did a set with Jack Reilly, Steve Gilmore, and Bill Goodwin, and Sherrie Maricle's Five Play went on as a quartet. Sherrie's musicians, all women: Tomoko Ohno on piano and Noriko Ueda on bass, and a marvelous Israeli tenor player, Anat Cohen.

"The evening concert began at eight, with Dave Frishberg doing a wonderful set of his tunes, a set by Joe Cohen and John Coats Jr (Joe is one of my favorite guitar players), and Phil Woods playing beautifully with the Festival Orchestra with Wolfgang Knittel and Rick Chamberlain plus guests from the afternoon concert. For the finale, there was a conclave of all the tenor players in the house.

"It was a good hang, and some good music got played. I hope they do it again next year."

I suddenly had another memory of Al. Some time in the late 1960s, my father was visiting me in New York. He was a violinist who had studied in England with a student of Joachim's. My dad's professional playing career pretty much ended with the advent of talking pictures, when musicians by the thousands lost their jobs in the pit orchestras that had accompanied silent movies throughout North America. He affected not to like jazz, but in the later years I noticed that it was sneaking up on him.

Tony Bennett was appearing at the Copacabana, and I took my father to hear him. As always, Tony had a first-class orchestra behind him. There were some tenor solos. At the end the first set, my father said with awed enthusiasm, "Who was that B-flat tenor player?"

I said, "Al Cohn."

"He's marvelous!" my father said.

He knew musicianship when he heard it. I introduced him to Al that evening. He was almost reverent.

Dave Frishberg wrote of the Zoot 'n' Al recordings:
"Well, listening to this music takes me back ... which is OK because — let's face it — the past is home to me. It's home to me and other surviving musicians from Zoot and Al's generation, and I speculate on how quaint we must seem now to the younger people who have never been interested in the music we play. We're the guys with the half-diminished chords and tritone substitutions who know 'all the tunes' and like to talk about swinging. We're today's 'old-time musicians', like the polka-band musicians of my childhood. And just like Whoopee John or the Six Fat Dutchmen or Frankie Yankovic, we're keeping alive the music of the 'old country', except that unlike those polka guys, we come from various racial and national backgrounds and the term 'old country' no longer applies to someplace overseas."
Amen.

Dave was having lunch with my wife and me in California some years ago. We talked about those old polka bands in the Midwest, which I too remember and seemingly nobody else does. Dave said, "Gene, we're dinosaurs. We're Whoopee John." He talked about baseball players of old and 1930s radio shows and how much he missed these things. And he said, "Oh man, I miss everything."

So do I. Especially Al and Zoot.”

The following video tribute features Al and Zoot together on Al’s original Doodle Oodle with Jaki Byard on piano, George Duvivier on bass and Mel Lewis on drums.


Wednesday, January 13, 2021

Willis and John Haley - Bill Holman Talks About Zoot Sims

 © Copyright ® Steven Cerra, copyright protected; all rights reserved.



The following excerpts are from Pat Dorian and Matt Vashlishan’s extensive 2020 interview with tenor saxophonist composer-arranger and band leader Willis “Bill” Holman. The talk with Bill is primarily on the subject of Jazz tenor saxophonist John Haley “Zoot” Sims [1925-1985] although it gravitates toward a discussion of Bill’s approach to arranging for much of the second half of the visit.


It was conducted by telephone with Bill in April 2020 from his home in Hollywood, CA under the auspices of East Stroudsburg University, which is the home of the Al Cohn Memorial Jazz Collection, 


The full interview appears in the Summer/Fall 2020 issue of The Note Magazine and you can make a contribution in support of the Foundation that underwrites the magazine and the collection via this link.


Bill and Zoot are two of the universally recognized giants of the Jazz scene during the second half of the 20th century. There’s nothing like a Jazz musician who knows what he’s talking about when it comes to describing what makes a cohort’s approach to the music significant and special.


© -  Pat Dorian and Matt Vashlishan/esu.edu, copyright protected; all rights reserved.


PD: Can we start out with how you first found out about Zoot? You revered him. You were both on the Kenton Orchestra in the late spring of 1953 when he was 27 and you were 26.


Bill Holman: Well I first found out about Zoot by hearing Woody Herman's record "I Told Ya I Loved Ya, Now Get Out" [recorded October 19, 1947, in Hollywood]. I haven't heard that thing in many, many years. There was a solo break [where everybody stopped], and the tenor player played this two- or four-bar break and it just put me away. I wasn't even playing music at that time. I was studying engineering at UCLA. I wasn't much of a player yet but that little break really got to me and I never forgot it. I never dreamed that I would meet and be friends with the guy that did it. Several years went by when I was learning how to play and starting to write, and I finally found out who it was who played the solo on Woody's record. So I started listening to all the Zoot that I could.


PD: Yeah, that's great. I have that recording here, do you mind if I play a little of that Zoot solo and see what you think of it?


BH: Sure.


PD: [Plays recording] It's very relaxed.


BH: Yeah, you know as far as I can remember I never heard a saxophone sound like that. It was a Lester Young influenced sound. But I was listening to Dexter Gordon and Coleman Hawkins and Zoot was just different. It was even different than Prez [Lester Young], whom I heard a lot of. There was just something that really connected with me.


PD: Beautiful, because right around there in 1947 you were turning 20, which is that pivotal age where you find your own thing and keep going with it.


BH: I was on Charlie Barnet's band in 1951 and we played the Apollo [Theater] in [Harlem] New York for a week. That may have been the first time I heard Zoot in person. Just watching him play and watching him when he wasn't playing on the stand, he had what I felt was a fierce expression on his face. Even though I still didn't know him, I was afraid of him. [laughs] I didn't want to offend him in any way, so I didn't talk to him until I went back to New York on Kenton's band [spring 1953] and he was playing on an off night at Birdland. I naturally went down to hear him and made up my mind that I was going to meet him and introduce myself.


On the break I went over and said, "I'm Bill and I'm playing with Kenton." And to my surprise he was very friendly! He was a really warm and friendly guy behind that fierce expression. So I said, "Why don't you come over to my hotel room?" He was on the break, so we went over to the hotel and got high. He was expounding on what a great thing it was for two people to meet and to bond over smoking dope. He was just really a pleasure to be with. When I heard a couple of nights later that Stan Kenton was talking to him about coming on the band, I was just beside myself. And it finally happened! He showed up and remembered who I was from our first meeting, and I was determined to become friends with him. It was very easy, because he was very welcoming. When he first joined the band we were traveling in busses. He would wander up and down the bus aisle singing little ditties. He did one to a Lester Young solo. He wrote lyrics to it: "My name is Zootie Sims... I play the saxophone... Hello! Hello everybody, hello!" All kinds of things like that. Zoot was just happy, singing songs and cracking jokes. The usual feeling on the bus was one of resignation. 200 miles to go today... , etc. Most of us just said, "OK, let's read a book or something." Zoot was having none of that. He wanted to live his life even though he was on a bus. Later we were traveling in cars. I was driving one of the cars, and Zoot got into my car. I think it was Lee Konitz, Zoot, Bobby Burgess and myself in my car. It was a good group because we all loved each other. We could talk about anything musically or personally or whatever.


PD: Without interstate highways as well.


BH: Yeah. The Europe trip eventually came up [August-September 1953] and in Germany we all bought cameras. Germany was the place for cameras. Every time the bus had a rest stop we would pile out of the bus and take pictures of each other. Zoot had a Rolleiflex and he was out there shooting with the rest of us.


In a concert in Berlin, Zoot was wearing his space shoes. They were specially made shoes built around the mold of your foot. They looked really funny. Between one of the tunes, Stan came over to Zoot and said, "Jack, I don't want you to wear those shoes on the [band]stand anymore." So we finished the set and went out for an intermission and Stan was talking business with a bunch of Capitol Records executives. Zoot goes right up to them and said, "Stan, what do your shoes cost?" Stan says, "Not now Jack, I'm busy." Zoot said, "I want to talk about it now. What do your shoes cost?" Stan said he didn't remember, and Zoot says, "Well my shoes cost $80," which at that time was a pretty stiff price for shoes. I don't know how it went on after that but the fact that Zoot busted up one of Stan's business conferences about his shoes tells you how he was.


Stan always called Zoot Jack [Zoot's given name was John], It was maybe a little too light to call him Zoot.


PD: It almost sounds like when Zoot would bang heads with Benny Goodman in Russia.


BH: Well [laughs], a lot of people did that!


PD: I see the concert in Berlin was at the Sportpalast [Sporthalle] on August 27, 1953. [The Kenton Band with Zoot featured on an improvised solo, Bill, and a remarkable personnel appeared in the 1953 German film "Schlagerparade" ("Hit Parade"), filmed on August 27,1953, at the Sporthalle in Berlin. A two-minute video segment is viewable on YouTube at "Stan Kenton: Berlin, 1953."]


BH: When we got back from Europe we were traveling on the bus and we had a bus accident on the Pennsylvania Turnpike on November llth. We rear-ended a truck and several people got hurt. The road manager got hurt, and the whole trombone section had facial injuries so they couldn't play. When we got to Cleveland, Stan said he wanted to have a rehearsal because he had to have Bill Russo contact some trombone players from Chicago to fill in. Of course they didn't know the book, so he wanted the rehearsal. Of course Zoot says, "Well, we know our parts, why do we have to rehearse?" Stan says, "Because I said so, Jack." So Zoot just keeps saying, "Why do we have to rehearse?," over and over and wouldn't back down. So Stan finally said, "I think you should give your notice." Zoot said, "OK, you got it." Two weeks later he left. On the night that he left, I gave my notice. I didn't see myself having much fun after Zoot left. I returned to LA. and to scuffling.


MV: Did you ever talk about saxophone playing, sound, concepts or playing music with Zoot? Or were your discussions purely based on non-musical friendship?


BH: No, I'm not a good communicator. Whatever Zoot wanted to talk about, that's what we talked about. It wasn't usually about music.


MV: You wrote a tune called "Zoot" for Stan Kenton's band, correct? How did that tune come about? Was it through a conversation with Stan or Zoot? What was your inspiration for it?


BH: Stan told me that he wanted me to write a chart for Zoot. That's all the guidance he gave me. I didn't talk to Zoot about it because I was on a tight rope with Stan about writing. I wanted to write swing charts, but Stan wanted more progressive jazz. I wanted to swing more. I didn't want to go too far in my direction to make Stan unhappy, so I tried to find a middle groove. I had been trying to do that since Stan started buying charts from me. I wanted to satisfy us both if possible. But I was young and didn't really know. I wrote what I thought would be an attractive thing for Zoot and suitable for Stan. It went OK except when I was riding back from the first rehearsal with Stan where we played it, he said, "That was a good chart, but it was a little like Basie wasn't it?" And I responded, "Well, not knowingly but I know it had to swing because it's Zoot Sims." We let it lay there but I was very happy and proud to have Zoot playing a piece of mine. [Eight live recordings of the Kenton Band performing "Zoot" between July and November 1953 are available.]


PD: The next topic I have here is that you were with Les Brown with Zoot on March 19, 1959 on a recording session in Hollywood. Does that bring up any memories?


BH: I do remember doing those things. I wasn't a member of the band, but Les had been making some records with jazz players and Zoot was one of them. Another was Frank Rosolino. I wrote the charts for Zoot and Frank.


Those records never did really well. They were something a little different than what Les Brown fans were used to buying. [The session was released as "Jazz Song Book" on the Coral label and also featured clarinetist Buddy DeFranco.]


PD: I see in the Jazz Discography by Tom Lord that you arranged for a December 4-5, 1957 session for Gerry Mulligan's Octet which was released as "Gerry Mulligan Songbook Volume 1." It was a band with Zoot and Al Conn, Lee Konitz, Gerry Mulligan, and no piano but Freddie Green on guitar.


BH: Yeah, originally the idea was to record that in L.A. When Dick Bock called me, that was the plan.


PD: Dick Bock from Pacific Jazz Records?

BH: Yeah. We were going to use bass and drums and no guitar. But one thing led to another and delayed it, so long that Gerry had to go back to New York and he took the charts with him and recorded it with all New York people. That made me happy because at the time I would rather listen to New York people than L.A. people. We added the guitar, which was probably Gerry's idea.


PD: It's five saxes, guitar, bass and drums: Lee Konitz, Allen Eager, Zoot and Al, Gerry Mulligan, Freddie Green on guitar, Henry Grimes on bass, and Dave Bailey on drums. [Al Cohn performed on tenor AND baritone saxophones!] That's exciting. For a lot of the sax music that Al wrote for just saxophones and rhythm section, like "The Sax Section" [LP recorded in 1956] and so many other things he did, here are Bill Holman arrangements of Gerry Mulligan tunes with those icons of saxophone. I imagine you were really in seventh heaven with that.


BH: Yeah, to work with Gerry's tunes and knowing that Gerry was going to be conducting the session and playing on it made it very attractive to me.


PD: Do you still have those arrangements or did they go to the Smithsonian?


BH: Gerry kept them. They could be in his collection in the

Library of Congress.


PD: Something that you were very generous with was the music for the Al Cohn Memorial Jazz Collection Zoot Fest performance that Matt and Bill Dobbins conducted of "Hawthorne Nights." Can we skip forward just about 20 years from the session in 1957 for Gerry Mulligan in New York and head to Los Angeles in September of 1976? How did "Hawthorne Nights" come about?


BH: [American jazz impresario] Norman Granz had called me and wanted me to write an album for Basie. I got to know Norman at that time and thought that now's the time to hit him up for a Zoot album. I asked him about a record with Zoot and a big band, and he said, "I would love to do a record with Zoot, but not a big band.


Can you do it with a smaller band?" So I said, "Sure." I was going to jump at the chance to do it any way that I could. The name comes from a travelogue where they will say "Paris Nights" or something like that to sound mysterious. They use a name and add "nights" to generate some kind of atmosphere. I called it "Hawthorne Nights" because Zoot grew up in Hawthorne, California. So I was implying soft summer breezes and palm trees and dancing girls in Hawthorne, which never happened! I assembled a band and told Norman that Zoot and I figured out a tentative instrumentation that we both agreed on.


I'm not entirely happy with the record. The tempos were a little too fast and I thought the rhythm section was pressing too hard. But we got it done. In the process and during one of Zoot's solos I heard something wrong in the band, so I stopped the take. Norman took exception to this. It was probably the worst thing I could have done to stop the band while Zoot was playing. 

My experience as a conductor on a record date was that if you hear something wrong, you stop it so you can make it right. Norman was really offended by that. I have been told that after that, Norman was always talking about what a phony I was and what a bad arranger I was. But I got past that.


MV: Do you remember how you selected the tunes?


BH: Zoot had one that he wrote, "Dark Cloud." He sings that. I don't really remember the other tunes...


MV: "Main Stem," "More Than You Know," "Only a Rose," "Girl From Ipanema," "I Got It Bad," and there's another original of yours besides "Hawthorne Nights," called "Fillings."


BH: I think Zoot requested "Ipanema."


MV: Did you write "Fillings" specifically for this date? Or was it something from somewhere else?


BH: No, it was for the date. It was a takeoff of "Feelings" which was a big tune at that time. I called it "Fillings" as in a Lower Slobbovian version of "Feelings." I was thinking of the language spoken by the downtrodden residents in the fictitious country of Lower Slobbovia, one of the regions created by Al Capp for his hilarious hillbilly comic strip '"Lil Abner" [published 1934-1977]. The residents had a mock Russian accent and were always changing vowels around, thus "Feelings" became "Fillings." [The profound political implications that Capp was communicating can be found online. Start with "Wikipedia Lower Slobbovia."]


PD: Oh, that's a great story! I remember around 1975 this Brazilian singer named Morris Albert had a hit with "Feelings." That's great!

Just to clarify the timeline here, you did the Count Basie LP called "I Told You So" which was recorded in January of 1976 and "Hawthorne Nights" was recorded eight months later in September of 1976.


BH: A word about that Basie album - one of the tunes I wrote on there I called "Told You So," which is the way that saying comes out a lot of the time. A lot of people don't bother saying, "I Told You So." They just say, "Told You So." That was my thinking. One day I get a call from Norman. He said, "About that tune, the saying is 'I Told You So.'" So I said, "Norman, in colloquial English sometimes we take words out and take shortcuts. That's how that sounds to me. 'I Told You So' sounds very formal and rehearsed." I couldn't sway him. So the record name came out as "I Told You So" and the tune itself stayed as "Told You So."


PD: You copyrighted it as "Told You So" so he couldn't change it?


BH: That's right.


PD: Who is Alfy as in "Blues for Alfy" that is on that same record?


BH: I was dating a woman named Ruth Price at the time [mid-1970s] and that was the name of her dog. [Ruth Price (b. 1938) continues to have a remarkable career in Los Angeles as a singer, lyricist, and founder/owner of the nonprofit jazz club the Jazz Bakery, which she opened in 1992. In July 1994, she sang on three tracks on the CD "Herb Geller Plays the Al Cohn Songbook" by the Herb Geller Quartet, released in 1996 on the Hep label in England (Hep 2066). One of the tracks features her singing the lyrics she composed for Al Cohn's "High on You." In 2020 she carries on while presenting live jazz throughout Southern California, most recently in Santa Monica at the Ann & Jerry Moss Theater (Jerry Moss is the "M" in the legendary A & M Records). Bob Dorough & Dave Frishberg's CD "Who's on First?" was recorded live in Los Angeles at the Jazz Bakery in November 1999 for Blue Note Records with Ruth as the announcer. For more about Ruth, visit https://jazzbakery. org/about-us .]


PD: Johnny Mandel wrote a tune about Al Cohn called "Here's to Alvy" and I wasn't sure if it was a similar thing.


BH: Also, Mandel wrote a tune about Al called "El Cajon." That's a district out here in California. [When said with a Latin inflection] it almost sounds like Al's name.


PD: That's right and Dave Frishberg wrote lyrics for it. Speaking of Al, would you like to talk about him at all? I notice you arranged for Al on LP's for Woody Herman, such as "Third Herd" in 1954. Both of you also wrote for the Maynard Ferguson "Birdland" volume one and two in September of 1956. You were both arrangers on several recordings that you did not play on, which demonstrates your additional expertise at arranging while you were both tenor players at heart.


BH: I didn't know Al as well as I knew Zoot. I had heard about Al or read about him in Downbeat Magazine or other places. I listened to his writing a lot. He always gave me the feeling that I could do this. His writing always sounded so natural and unforced. To me it had a heavy Jewish content. F minor was his favorite key. He wrote several charts that I listened to a lot that were all in F minor. I got to know him when I went back [to New York] in 1960 to work with Gerry Mulligan and the Concert Jazz Band. He was such a wise man along with his great playing and writing. I was like being in heaven hanging around with those guys.


I heard that Al was a big W. C. Fields fan. So when he was playing a club out here I went up to him and with no introduction or anything I said, "Sneed Hearn." Without any hesitation he turns around and says, "Mahatma Kane Jeeves." [For these "unwashed" and neophyte interviewers, it was an illumination to find out that Sneed Hearn and Mahatma Kane Jeeves were but two of the bizarre names that W.C. Fields concocted for characters in his movies.]

PD: That reminds me of the joke about the coat check person in the Indian restaurant, "Mahatma Coat."


BH: [laughs] I've never heard that! Mahatma Coat, oh man, that made my day!


I made Al laugh one time in Germany. A group of us were walking around in Cologne. We were doing a production for the radio network.


PD: Featuring Al, right?


BH: Yeah, we were wandering around not paying attention to where we were going. And eventually somebody says, "Where are we?" and I say, "Right here!" And that broke Al up and I was very proud of that.


PD: Our dear departed friend Wolfgang Knittel from Delaware Water Gap transcribed your arrangements from that date and we have some titles here: "Some Other Spring," "Woody 'N You,” "Autumn Leaves," "High On You,” "Good Bait," and "Love For Sale." I'm glad you mentioned that date featuring both Al Cohn and Sal Nistico.


BH: Another thing about that production was that I had not been playing much. The producer suggested I bring my tenor and play a bit. I'm thinking, "Me? Play with Al and Sal?" It sounded like a terrible idea but he insisted. So I went and did it anyway and didn't sound as good as they did but I did it. I loved both of those guys. It was a real knockout to work with them for a few weeks.


PD: We were able to play some of those arrangements adjusted for Wolfe's local big band here, JARO [Jazz Artists Repertory Orchestra]. Wolfe used one French horn, four saxes, trombone, bass trombone, three trumpets and rhythm section.


BH: So he transcribed the charts from that production?


PD: Yeah, Al was living here and Wolfgang worshipped you. Wolfe would get up every day and arrange for the jazz festival we do every September in Delaware Water Gap. He would transcribe a year's worth [a 45-minute set] of pieces he wanted to play with his band. It is amazing the output he produced. I used to joke he would take the day after the festival off and the day after that would start the arranging for 363 more days until the next festival.


It looks like the WDR gig was in Cologne, Germany in 1987 [WDR is the name of the renown jazz radio orchestra in residence since 1946 at the West German Broadcasting Corporation headquarters.]. Was Mel Lewis there with you for that gig?


BH: Oh yeah!


PD: "Tenor Reunion" they called it [June 12,1987, which was eight months before Al's death]. The tunes were "Pilgrim's Pride," "Good Bait," "Woody 'N You" Al Cohn's "High On You," "Autumn Leaves," "Love For Sale," and "Moon of Manakoora." [This project also featured Sal Nistico, a tenor saxophonist, and like Al, a Woody Herman Thundering Herd alumnus.]


BH: I have to comment about Mel Lewis being there. He was on most of my productions. The band had a percussionist, but often they had to hire a drummer to come over from the states to play for the two weeks. I was tight with Mel, and we got him on almost all of our productions. It was really a help. He was just so musical and able to control the band and was able to help me with his musicality. He could offer punctuation points as the piece transitioned, and he could remember it. People often talk about Buddy Rich as being an "instant sight-reader" ... Mel could do that, too. Just once through a piece and he could remember all of it. He had a very good idea of the chart after one run-through. We were also friends and I enjoyed the companionship.


PD: He was on Kenton's Orchestra several months with you. I know he was there after you for the "Cuban Fire!" LP [May 1956]. You two go back such a long way. Do you have any comments about Phil Woods? He was so close to all of you and he is one of the founders of our Al Cohn Memorial Jazz Collection.


BH: Well there's no need to talk about Phil's playing! Everybody knows what he can do. He was a really energetic tough taskmaster. I remember there was a break on one of the tunes and Phil played a solo break that was a little bit out and the whole band flubbed the re-entrance. We stopped and I told the band something about this and that, and I told Phil, "Please be kind," meaning please help us out a little bit on the breaks. All Phil said was, "Pay attention!" Well that was that!


PD: Was this when you arranged for recording sessions that Phil played on for Jackie Cain [the "Bits and Pieces" LP, recorded in March 1957] or for Charlie Barnet [the "More Charlie Barnet" LP, recorded in September 1958]?


BH: Oh no, this was in Germany in Cologne [1989].


PD: So this was when you did some arrangements featuring Phil for the WDR?


BH: Yeah, I did a lot of things over there.


PD: I didn't know there was a date specifically with Phil.


BH: Yeah, I think there were a couple of them. That's where I met Phil. I didn't know him before that.


MV: Did you write anything specifically for him? Or was he playing pre-existing charts on this date?


BH: No, I wrote all these for him. I called him and we talked about tunes.


PD: I have the tune list here now: Phil's tune "Quill," "Round Midnight," "Speak Low," "Springfield Nights" Parts 1-3, "We'll Be Together Again," and "When the Sun Comes Out." Was "Springfield Nights" the same type of reference as "Hawthorne Nights" since Hawthorne was where Zoot grew up and Springfield [Massachusetts] was where Phil grew up?


BH: Yes it was. I don't remember much about that concert.


MV: I'm wondering if "Speak Low" was a different arrangement than the one from your earlier big band recording. Did you arrange that more than once?


BH: Yeah, it was different.


MV: If we could switch topics now, I was curious about some of your writing and education background. You speak about Gerry Mulligan a lot. As far as writing and arranging, who were your major influences? You reference Mulligan in terms of form, but who were your three major influences? What major things did you pick up from people that helped shape you as a composer?


BH: There were a few people that I knew about. I didn't get any direct musical ideas from them, but I was a big fan of the early Basie band in the '30s and '40s. I didn't know who the arrangers were but I thought they were really great. As it turns out a lot of those charts were head charts that the band made up themselves. I knew about Eddie Sauter [iconic arranger] from the one record he made for Benny Goodman [probably recorded in 1940]. That stood out to me. Gerry had a big hit with Gene Krupa's band in 1947 and that thing lasted on the radio for a couple of years called "Disc Jockey Jump." It was played all over the place. That was my first exposure to Gerry. I liked that chart and made a note of him, too. He came to LA. in 1951 and that's when he and Stan connected.


Gene Roland, who wrote a lot of music for Stan, was a good friend of mine and one night at my house I was playing some records for him. I put on a thing that was a dub of a chart I wrote when I was at Westlake College of Music. It was a kind of linear thing. He jumped up and said, "I think this is what Stan is looking for!" Apparently Stan was talking to Gene about changing the style of the band a little bit, things like getting away from harmonic structures and leaning more towards melody. Gene took this record to Stan while I was on the road with Charlie Barnet and he told him my story. Stan liked it and they arranged for Stan and me to meet. When I got back in town I went to his place and we talked about music. He suggested I write a couple of pieces for the band. I said, "Sure." I went home and wrote some charts immediately.


I was so impressed with this situation that I overwrote the charts. They really didn't hang together. I took them to rehearsal and we made a mutual decision that they weren't what he was looking for. I thought to myself, "Well, that cooks me with Kenton." He was rehearsing a new band [late 1951-early 1952], and they needed a new tenor player so I auditioned and got the gig as the tenor player. So I said, "Oh good, Stan and I are back on again!"


Once I was on the band I couldn't think of anything to write. I kept thinking about the difference between Stan's conception and mine. I couldn't figure out a way to make it work at both ends. So I didn't write anything for a longtime. Stan kept encouraging me saying, "Holman, when are you going to write something?"


Several months went by - this is where Gerry comes in again. He had written eight or 10 charts for the band. Some of them were hot jazz and some of them were danceable. We played quite a few of the dance charts every night. I got to study his voicings, harmony, and the form of his charts. I was getting acquainted with what jazz charts sounded like. That gave me the confidence that if he could do it, then I will try.


I wrote a piece for Don Bagley called "Bags" [recorded 19 times, the first of which was a live recording on January 15, 1953, followed later in the month with the studio recording]. Stan liked it and said to keep on writing. I started writing more and more, and more of them were accepted and the band liked them.


MV: You mentioned you had this chance to study Mulligan's writing. Were you studying scores or parts, or was this purely you listening on the gig and paying attention to what was happening?


BH: Just by playing and hearing what everything sounded like and getting an idea for how the form felt.


MV: You studied composition at the Westlake College of Music, right? Is that where you got your initial understanding of writing and harmony?


BH: Yeah, I studied arranging there. The organizer of the school envisioned turning out proficient commercial musicians that could play or sing in any kind of band. He said one of the best doubles you could take up is to sing the third part in a vocal group. There were a few of us into jazz and we didn't want to hear about any of that! That was the aim of the school, though. What usually happens is the jazz group will form as a sub group, which is what we did. The head of the school did not conceive of musicians being composers, he just wanted a well-rounded student.


PD: Were there any teachers at Westlake that you feel worked out well for you?


BH: There was a teacher named David Robertson from Massachusetts. He was a genius. He could hear things and knew ahead of time what you were doing when he heard one of your pieces. He was great and so far ahead of us that a lot of times we didn't know what he was talking about. I imagine private lessons with him would have been a real plus. We were all on the G.I. Bill and we didn't want to go through the red tape of getting another teacher involved since we were already enrolled in a certain schedule. I eventually ended up studying privately with Russell Garcia. He wrote an arranging book that is geared toward being a successful working musician ["The Professional Arranger-Composer," a compilation of Garcia's assignments from the late 1940s at Westlake, published in 1954]. He didn't talk about jazz much. But later it turns out that he did have a jazz conception all his own, it just wasn't mainstream. Those were my two favorite guys.


MV: So it seems as far as jazz writing goes, you were relying solely upon your life experience and what you could learn from these situations, not necessarily formal instruction.


BH: Oh yeah. We all had a lot of jazz records and that's where you learn a lot of stuff. As far as I knew nobody else in L.A. was really trying to write jazz inspired music. Everybody in L.A. was concerned with studio work. I was kind of a loner.


PD: The Westlake College of Music in Hollywood was very new when you were there. It opened in 1945 and was the first jazz academic institution in the country, opening around the same time as the Schillinger House of Music [started in Boston in 1945, becoming the Berklee School of Music in 1954] to offer a college diploma that offered a curriculum in jazz. It became a prototype for jazz education in other schools.


BH: Yeah, I went there in early 1948 for a couple of years.


MV: I always wanted to know your thoughts on the process of writing and arranging back in a time when there were no computers or communication. You had to write a chart and send it in the mail or take it to a rehearsal without really hearing it. The process was much slower and I imagine it was more difficult. Can you say anything about that?


BH: Well, things haven't changed that much for me. I don't write on a computer so I can't play things back. I still write with a pencil and a large eraser! That was one of the reasons I started my own band. I wanted to hear my music not too long after I wrote it. I wanted to hear it at the right tempo! I would send things off to bands, and I would hear it two years later on the record, and they were invariably too fast. Some of the leaders would make adjustments, like Woody [Herman]. He felt no embarrassment about changing a chart or adding something to it. Stan didn't do that, but he always played the tempos wrong. So I started my own band to hear my music the way I wanted it. But the actual writing part is pretty much the same.


[Six weeks later, on June 11, 2020, Bill told Pat that Woody Herman performed Bill's 1953 big band composition "Prez Conference" live for over a year, yet when recording it for the LP "The 3 Herds" on May 21,1954, Woody changed the title to "Mulligan Tawny" and inserted a Gerry Mulligan-esque introduction with a prominent baritone sax part. There are two Al Cohn classics on the same LP. In addition, 10 years later, when Woody Herman recorded Bill's very up-tempo and rollicking arrangement of "After You've Gone," Woody added an "interesting" and very slow and mournful clarinet melody at the beginning and end of the arrangement. As documented by several sources, during this mid-day recording session on November 22, 1963 at Phil Ramone's A & R Recording Studio on the 4th floor of 112 W. 48th Street in New York, Woody and his band members were informed that President Kennedy had just been assassinated. After recording Bill Chase's eerily mournful arrangement of "A Taste of Honey," it was decided to end the session, whereupon several band members went downstairs to the legendary Jim & Andy's jazz bar to process the tragedy.]


MV: Do you have any formal piano training?

BH: I use the piano, not exclusively but to check voicings and work out harmonic changes. I'm a lousy piano player. I never learned how to play but I got by.


MV: I want to ask you about two of my favorite records: "The Fabulous Bill Holman" and "In a Jazz Orbit." I'm curious how those arrangements came about for those records.


BH: "In a Jazz Orbit" [recorded February 11, 1958, for the Andex label] was my second experience with a producer for Bethlehem Records. I was on a lot of small band dates for him, and we talked about doing a big band album and he gave me the go ahead. He said to write the music and we would discuss recording it after I wrote it. So I wrote and wrote and called him to ask when we could record. He said, "Well, things are a little shaky now, can we put it off for a little bit?" I reluctantly agreed and it went on and on and never got better. It became apparent that he wasn't going to record it.


This had happened once before with my first record, "The Fabulous Bill Holman" [recorded April 25,1957, for the Coral label]. They promised and then never recorded it. With that one, drummer Shelly Manne had an arrangement with a label to make four jazz records and picked my band to make one of the four. So that was in 1957.


In 1958, I had all these other charts ready and went looking for a label. I was doing some vocal charts for a label, and I asked them one day if they were interested and they seemed like they were. They came to a rehearsal and they loved it. They said the band would sell itself, so we recorded it. Looking back at the personnel for those records, it looks like an all-star band, but I didn't think of it that way. They were just guys that I knew and people who's playing I liked and who could handle a recording date. It turned out well and it's one of my favorites too.


MV: How and why did you prefer three trombones and later on add the bass trombone?


BH: Well it was just the norm at the time. That's really it. Four Trumpets and three trombones.


MV: Was this before or after Kenton had a larger brass section? Was he the first to have 10 brass?


BH: Yeah.


MV: Was he doing that around the same time everybody else was using seven?


BH: I think he had 10 when I joined the band. That was '52. But jazz bands didn't have bass trombones then.


MV: On the subject of writing, do you approach writing in any specific way, or is it just a matter of sitting down waiting to see what comes to you? Do you work on writing? I often read of people with formulas and pitch manipulation but from what I have read it seems you just write what you hear.


BH: I never had a system. A lot of times I just imagined playing a line. Boy, I thought of all kinds of things while you were asking the question and now I can't think of any!


I just sat there and sang to myself. Some people showed me how to write a curved line on the staff paper as a guide and then filling it up with notes or something. But that didn't work out much. A lot of my earlier writing was generated by my time as a player. I imagined melodic lines with my fingers on the horn.


Russ Garcia made me very aware of form and I've thought a lot about that. Not a waltz form or dance form, but the form of the music itself. How will it have a climax and an end and a curve? I try to keep form in mind and every day I would review what I wrote so far to keep myself in some kind of groove. Your mind can change quite a bit from day to day depending on what you think about, what you worry about, and how you feel. I became conscious of that and tried to make one day flow into the next day. Form is a big item for me.


MV: So if we look at two different records of yours, "In a Jazz Orbit" versus something like "World Class Music" with "St. Thomas" and those arrangements [recorded November 30-December 1, 1987, on JVC records], would you say that evolution was a natural occurrence or did you really try to grow and change with the world and the sound of jazz? Because you're writing has really evolved yet it still sounds like you.


BH: I listened mostly to players that I liked. I liked to keep an improvisatory quality to my music. I want it to feel like a bunch of soloists. I would say the progression was natural. Even though I was listening to small groups, the soloists were my inspiration. As that music changed, so did I. Eventually I started listening to other music. I discovered the Bartok String Quartets and that turned me around. I imagine some of that crept into my decisions. I want the lead line to feel like whoever is playing it is just making it up. There's a limit to how far you can take this of course, but I just want to make sure it doesn't get too stiff.


PD: What did you like about Bartok?


BH: Oh, the music! [laughs] The quartets were just mind blowing ... his music for strings and percussion and celeste as well. It was very much like jazz to me. It was people's music dressed up behind some knowledge and it was just lovely. I first heard the string quartets on the road with Kenton because I roomed with Bill Russo and he had a portable record player. He had an album of Bartok String Quartets and it was just unbelievable to hear it at an early age musically. I didn't get started in music until after I was out of the Navy. [Phil Woods often studied and referenced Bartok's music, especially the six volumes of "Mikrokosmos'' for piano and the six string quartets.]


PD: At the end of WWII?


BH: Yeah, July 1942 to July 1946.


PD: Did you do any music in the Navy?


BH: No, I was in officer training school for three quarters of it. Then when the war was over I flunked out of officer training school and became an ordinary seaman and served on a cruiser for three months. It was fun, I liked being on a ship and sailing on the ocean. I was close to home as well. Every few weeks I could visit home.


PD: Bartok died a month after WWII ended. He was composing right into the 1940s. He was alive during your early years in music. He included elements of folk music in his writing.


BH: It's unbelievable how he could die penniless after writing so much great music. It just doesn't seem like that could happen.


PD: And his funeral was attended by only 10 people! Speaking of the folk aspect of Bartok, when you are composing, does it always have to have the dance aspect? So much of big band music started out as dance music. Were you concerned about that or more of jazz as an art form? You also grew up in the swing era in the '30s and '40s.


BH: I've never thought about dance music. That seems to come normally to me. The bands like Basie that I have been inspired by seem to pick medium tempos for pieces and I liked it, so I would use it. I don't remember anyone asking me for a specific dance chart. Stan had a bunch of dance charts, but after he liked my writing, he put me in the category above dance charts. Stan had different levels to categorize arrangers. I graduated from "rookie" directly into "jazz charts."


PD: Bill you have been incredible for the better part of two hours!


MV: This has been a great experience. I think it is particularly interesting that for someone as influential and prolific as yourself, there is really no literal rhyme or reason to how you do what you do, which further illustrates how special your writing is. Some of the best writing is the stuff that "just happens."


PD: It is really great to hear you speak about all of these things.


BH: It's always a pleasure to talk about music, especially to people that know what I'm talking about! •