Thursday, January 24, 2019

Part 1 - Lullaby of Gangland by Fredric Dannen

© -  Steven A. Cerra - copyright protected; all rights reserved.

"An entertaining collection of anecdotes about an uproariously unsavory subculture of egomaniacs, sybarites, goniffs, and music lovers... Mr. Dannen has a knack for the telling quote and a healthy appetite for the juicy story."
—ROBERT CHRISTGAU, THE NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW


"Anyone with more than a passing interest in the inner workings of the [music] industry will be enthralled by the juicy tales [Dannen] has to tell." —THE NEW YORK TIMES


"A knowing and unsentimental glimpse into the inner workings of the music business... Dannen got the inside story, and he got it right."
—LOS ANGELES TIMES BOOK REVIEW


“A sobering, blunt and unusually well-observed depiction of the sometimes sordid inner working of the music business.”
-BILLBOARD
Almost since its inception, Jazz has had a long association with the criminal underworld and its vices.
Bars, Gin Joints, Speakeasies, private parties, hotel and casino lounges - wherever “live” Jazz was performed, all were potentially rife for some form of gangland activity.
Not surprisingly then, when Jazz made its way into the recording studio, the record business, and the world of music publishing, organized crime did, too.
While “Hit records,” per se, are fairly rare in the Jazz lexicon, the substrata and substructures connected with the record and music publishing business that author Fredric Dannen describes in the following “Lullaby of Gangland” chapter were also very commonplace in many phases of the Jazz World in general.


Copiously researched and documented, Fredric Dannen’s Hit Men [New York: Vintage, 1991] is a highly controversial portrait of the pop music industry in all its wild, ruthless glory: the insatiable greed and ambition; the enormous egos; the fierce struggles for profits and power; the vendettas, rivalries, shakedowns, and payoffs. Chronicling the evolution of America's largest music labels from the Tin Pan Alley days to the present day, Fredric Dannen examines in depth the often venal, sometimes illegal dealings among the assorted hustlers and kingpins who rule over this multi-billion-dollar business.


Lullaby of Gangland - Part 1


“Rock historians tend to romanticize the pioneers of the rock and roll industry. It is true that the three large labels of the fifties —RCA Victor, Decca, and Columbia, which CBS had bought in 1958—were slow to recognize the new music. So were the publishers of Tin Pan Alley. It took independent businessmen like Leonard Chess of Chess Records in Chicago to put Chuck Berry on vinyl, and Syd Nathan of King Records in Cincinnati to record James Brown.


The pioneers deserve praise for their foresight but little for their integrity. Many of them were crooks. Their victims were usually poor blacks, the inventors of rock and roll, though whites did not fare much better. It was a common trick to pay off a black artist with a Cadillac worth a fraction of what he was owed. Special mention is due Herman Lubinsky, owner of Savoy Records in Newark, who recorded a star lineup of jazz, gospel, and rhythm and blues artists and paid scarcely a dime in royalties.


The modern record industry, which derives half its revenues from rock, worships its early founders. It has already begun to induct men such as disc jockey and concert promoter Alan Freed into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. When veteran record men wax nostalgic about the fifties, they often speak of the great "characters" who populated the business. Morris Levy, the founder of Roulette Records, said proudly, "We were all characters in those days." The term is probably shorthand for "Damon Runyon character." It signifies a Broadway street hustler: tough, shrewd, flashy, disreputable. Levy denied this last attribute, but Levy was a man who spent his life denying things.


In the dominion of characters, Levy was king. He loomed larger than most of the other pioneers, and as each of them fell by the wayside, he remained a potent institution and a vibrant reminder of where the industry had come from. In 1957 Variety dubbed Levy the "Octopus" of the music industry, so far-reaching were his tentacles. Three decades later, another newsman called him the "Godfather" of the American music business. His power had not diminished.


Morris Levy started Roulette in 1956. after a decade in nightclubs (he owned the world-famous Birdland). Roulette was one of several independent record companies that put out rock and roll. It featured Frankie Lymon, Buddy Knox, Jackie and the Starlights. As rock became the rage, the big labels discovered that the independents were bumping them off the singles charts. So they opened their checkbooks and bought the rock musicians' contracts or acquired the independents outright. In 1955 RCA Victor paid Sun Records $35,000 [plus a $5K signing bonus] for Elvis Presley. By the end of the decade most of the independents were gone; the founders had cashed in their chips. Atlantic Records in New York remained a going concern but in 1967 became part of Warner-Seven Arts (later Warner Communications). Levy kept Roulette. It continued to grow and absorb other independent labels and music publishers and even a large chain of record stores.


Morris's power came from copyrights. He understood early in the game that a hit song is an annuity, earning money year after year for its lucky owner. His very first publishing copyright was the jazz standard "Lullaby of Birdland," which he commissioned for his nightclub. Every time a high school marching band played "The Yellow Rose of Texas" at the Rose Bowl, Morris got paid, because he owned that copyright, too. "It's always pennies—nickels, pennies," Morris once said of his song catalog. "But it accumulates into nice money. It works for itself. It never talks back to you."


Nice money, indeed. By the eighties, Morris Levy was worth no less than $75 million. A major share of his wealth came from his music publishing empire, Big Seven, which had thirty thousand copyrights. Sunnyview, his two-thousand-acre horse farm along the Hudson River in Columbia County, New York, was valued at $15 million. In the seventies, he took over a small chain of bankrupt record stores, which he renamed Strawberries. A decade later he turned down a $30 million bid for the chain. Not bad for a man who was tossed out of elementary school for assaulting a teacher.


Much harder to quantify was another source of Morris Levy's wealth and power: a lifelong association with the Mafia. A Sephardic Jew (or "Turk," in his words) from the poorest section of the Bronx, Morris was never a member, but he did business with several crime families. The Genovese family of New York cast the longest shadow over his career. Morris always disavowed mob involvement; when the subject of his well-known gangster friends came up, he was fond of pointing to a framed portrait of himself with Cardinal Spellman, remarking: 'That don't make me a Catholic. "


Morris endured over a quarter-century of government "harassment," as he called it, but seemed immune from prosecution, even after a policeman lost an eye to him in a 1975 brawl, and after two business associates were murdered, apparently by the mob. (His brother Zachariah, better known as Irving, was murdered as well, in January 1959. He was stabbed to death at Birdland by a collector for mob loan sharks after ordering the man's prostitute wife from the club. Despite legend, it was not a gangland hit.) Morris's string ran out at long last in 1988, when he was convicted along with a Genovese underboss on extortion charges, fie died of cancer two years later, at sixty-two.


Morris's gangster ties were never a secret to the record business. To say that few held it against him is an understatement. The industry, which knew him as Moishe, revered him. He was chairman emeritus of the music division of the United Jewish Appeal and a key fund-raiser for other music charities. His philanthropy was not the only reason, or even the main reason, the business embraced him. It went much deeper. Morris reverberated with the industry's street mythos. He looked like Big Jule in Guys and Dolls—large, stocky, with an enormous neck and huge, hamlike hands. His voice sounded like sandpaper in the glottis.


In another trade besides vinyl, a man like Morris Levy might have been a pariah. The record business has never shrunk from the mob. At the end of World War II, the industry's best customers were jukebox operators, and many of them were mafiosi. Since the Depression, the Mafia has played a key role in artist management and booking (especially of black performers), pressing, and independent distribution.


In the record business, to be close to dangerous men like Levy is to take on some of their attributes and accrue some of their avoirdupois. It confers far more status than, for example, an MBA, which is perhaps even a liability.


Walter Yetnikoff found this out early in his career. According to Morris, "One of Walter's first assignments at CBS as a young kid was to collect $400,000 off me. He collected it. See, that was the beginning of his rise at CBS." Walter grew fond of Morris and spent time at Levy's farm. Yetnikoff invested money in Malinowski, an improbably named Irish racehorse that Morris owned and stabled there. (Morris also sold shares in horses to rock stars Billy Joel, Daryl Hall, and their managers.) At the end of a long, abusive day, haggling on the phone with lawyers and managers, Walter would call Moishe and unload his troubles. One time Morris demanded three dollars for "psychiatric consultation"; Walter sent a check, which Levy framed and hung. Morris believed that Walter was the last of the great characters, a member of his dying breed. "Walter could be a throwback," he said.


"Throwback" was the wrong word. Walter, after all, was only six years Morris's junior. It is well to remember how young the American record industry is and how rapidly it has grown up. In 1955 the industry's total sales were about $277 million. Revenues have increased over 2000 percent, and today's key record executives and lawyers and managers are not even a generation removed from the founders. Nor are they much different.




On a day in early 1987, Roulette Records' offices on the eighteenth floor of 1790 Broadway could have been mistaken for those of a rundown CPA firm, had it not been for the gold albums and rock posters on the walls. Facing Morris Levy's cluttered desk was an old upright piano. A sign on the wall proclaimed, O LORD, GIVE ME A BASTARD WITH TALENT! Just above it was a hole drilled by federal agents, who had snuck into Levy's office in the middle of the night and planted an omnidirectional microphone. The ceiling had two holes, each for a hidden video camera. Morris was in good spirits, considering that the previous September he had been nabbed by two FBI agents in a Boston hotel room and indicted for extortion. Never a sharp dresser, Morris was arrayed in blue jeans and an old polo shirt and had several days' worth of stubble. He leaned across the desk and began to tell his story.


"One of my first jobs in a nightclub was at the Ubangi Club. That was in '45 or '44. I was just sixteen years old. I was a checkroom boy. Then I became a darkroom boy. The camera girls would go around clubs taking flash photos. You were in a room in the back of the club, and you got the negatives, and you developed 'em and had 'em ready in fifteen minutes for the customers. Before that there, I was a dishwasher and a short-order cook. I worked in a restaurant called Toby's on the corner of Fifty-second and Broadway. The kids from the checkroom at the Ubangi used to come up for coffee, and they're the ones who told me about it. So I tried the checkroom and the darkroom, one led to the other, which is sort of the way your whole life goes,


"I became good at the darkroom. I advanced with the people I worked for and became a head guy, setting up darkrooms around the country. We had the rights to a lot of clubs. In Atlantic City, there was Babette's, the Dude Ranch, the Chateau Renault. In Philadelphia, there was the Walton Roof, the Rathskeller, Frank Colombo's. In Newark, it was the Hourglass; in Miami, there was places like the 600 Club, the Frolics Club, the 5 O'Clock Club. New York itself had two hundred nightclubs, probably. You could go out any night of the week and see any one of a hundred stage shows or dance bands. It was a different world.


"When I was seventeen, I joined the navy. I was away for a year. I got out in '45 and went back into darkroom work. I tried my own concession, in Atlantic City, and went broke.


"Then an opportunity came up. There was a guy out of Boston who opened up a big place called Topsy's Chicken Roost on Broadway, under the Latin Quarter. And he wanted out. So I got my old bosses to buy the club off him with no money down, and for that I got a small piece of the club and a big piece of the checkroom. We were a chicken restaurant. We served as much as a thousand chicken dinners a night, for $1.29. And we opened up a little lounge there called the Cock Lounge. Billy Taylor played there, Sylvia Sims, and other acts like that. It was a groovy little spot.


"In the beginning of '48, Symphony Sid and Monte Kay came down about running a bebop concert. We put the bebop in on a Monday night, there was a line up the block. We had Dexter Gordon or Charlie Parker or Miles Davis. They did two nights a week, and then it grew to three nights a week, then six and seven nights a week. That's where Billy Eckstine got started. It was really fabulous. We became the Royal Roost, the first bebop club in the city.
"Then the three partners decided to move to a much bigger place. They moved to the old Zanzibar, which seated like twelve hundred people, and opened up Bop City. And when they moved over, they forgot about me. I felt I got screwed. I stayed with the Royal Roost, I tried to run it, but it ran into the ground.


"About three months later, Monte Kay came to me about opening up competition for Bop City. We opened Birdland at Fifty-second and Broadway on December 15, 1949. But we found out that Bop City was so powerful, we couldn't get an act unless they didn't want it. Harry Belafonte worked Birdland for like a hundred a week. But we had great difficulties booking the club.


"We finally came up with a Machiavellian move against Bop City. Every time we reached for an act, they would get it. So we went to the big booking agents and said, You've got a band we want: Amos Milburn and his Chicken Shackers. Which really don't belong in a jazz joint. We picked another band that played tobacco barn dances. And they said, We'll get back to you. And being that we tried to book those two bands, they grabbed 'em and put 'em into Bop City. We got ahold of Charlie Parker. So we sort of stunk out their place and got tremendous goodwill at our place. From that point on, we drove Bop City into the ground. Everybody wanted to work Birdland."


Morris next discovered publishing. "I was in my club one night', and a guy comes in from ASCAP [the American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers, a performing-rights agency] and said he wanted money every month. I thought it was a racket guy trying to shake me down. I wanted to throw him out. And then he came back again and said he's going to sue. I said. Get the fuck outta here. I went to my lawyer and I says, What is this guy? He keeps coming down, he wants money. My lawyer says, He's entitled to it. By act of Congress, you have to pay to play music. I said, Everybody in the world's gotta pay? That's a hell of a business. I'm gonna open up a publishing company!"


Morris called it Patricia Music, after his first wife. (He would marry and divorce four more times and father three sons.) Patricia Music's first copyright was "Lullaby of Birdland." "I went to George Shearing, I says. Write me a theme and record it. It's probably one of the most recorded pieces in the world.


"And during that period, I opened up other nightclubs and restaurants, like the Embers, the Round Table, the Down Beat, the Blue Note, Birdland in Florida. ..."


Colorful as it is, Morris's account of his early days in nightclubs omits some details. He failed to mention the wiseguys who were his silent partners. He did not explain where the money came from to open Birdland, though he said Morris Gurlak, a hatcheck concessionaire who had employed him and his brother, Irving, donated a few thousand dollars. Some years after Birdland opened, New York police investigators put together a dossier on Levy. They believed that Morris and Irving took over Birdland from mobster Joseph "Joe the Wop" Cataldo. When Levy and Morris Gurlak opened the Round Table Restaurant, a steakhouse on Fiftieth Street, in 1958, police sources identified some of the other partners. One was Frank Carbo, the so-called "underworld commissioner of boxing," a convicted killer with ties to Murder Incorporated. Another was John "Johnny Bathbeach" Oddo, a caporegime, or captain, in the Colombo family.


Morris's ties to Mafia figures can be traced back at least to when he was fourteen and a hatcheck boy at the Greenwich Village Inn. There he won the favor of Tommy Eboli, future head of the Genovese family and a future partner in records. As a club and restaurant owner. Morris is thought to have fronted for Genovese soldier Dominic Ciaffone, also known as Swats Mulligan. Swats had a nephew, Gaetano Vastola, who went by several nicknames: "Corky," "the Big Guy," "the Galoot," Morris did business with Vastola for thirty years; the Big Guy was convicted in 1989 as an accomplice to the same crime that brought Levy a jail sentence. Swats was proud of his nephew; a federal wiretap once caught him bragging, "This kid could tear a human being apart with his hands."


The Genovese family, which became central to Morris's life, is one of the five large Mafia families of New York, the others being the Gambino, the Lucchese, the Bonanno. and the Colombo. The Genovese faction makes money the old-fashioned way: illegal gambling, loan-sharking, drugs, prostitution. It also has a grip on legitimate enterprises like garbage collection, the New Jersey waterfront. Teamsters locals and other unions, and the Fulton Fish Market in lower Manhattan. The concrete industry in New-York is under Genovese domination.


The family has a bloody history. Law enforcers trace its roots to the Castellammarese War of 1930, which raged between forces headed by Salvatore Maranzano and Joe "the Boss" Masseria. The war ended in 1931 when Joe the Boss was lured to a Coney Island restaurant by one of his own lieutenants, Charles "Lucky" Luciano, and shot dead. This left Maranzano the capo di tutti capi, or boss of bosses—but not for long. A few months later, four men posing as police officers walked into Maranzano's Park Avenue office, shot him, and slit his throat. The assassins had been sent by Lucky Luciano, who thereby seized command of what was then called the Luciano family. When Lucky went to jail in 1936, his underboss, Vito Genovese, took over. The family has since borne his name. Genovese soon fled to Italy to escape prosecution, and Frank Costello assumed control. When Genovese returned to New York in 1945, he began plotting to depose Costello.


A decade later, Costello was allowed to step down, a rare privilege in the Mafia, which has perhaps the world's worst retirement program. It was a reward for his observance of the mob's sacred omerta, or code of silence. Costello had refused to identify the man who tried to kill him. On May 2, 1957, Costello entered the lobby of his Central Park West apartment building when a gunman called his name. As he turned around, a bullet grazed his skull. He was discharged from Roosevelt Hospital a short time later, very much alive. The gunman's identity was no secret. He was Vincent "the Chin" Gigante, a former club boxer and Genovese soldier on the make. Chin was indicted for the murder attempt, but Costello cleared him.


Genovese regained control of the family, only to die of heart failure in federal prison in 1969. The reins passed to Tommy Eboli, who, among other dubious achievements, was Gigante's boxing manager. Around that time, according to police files, Morris Levy sold Eboli a half share in Promo Records, a New Jersey company, for $100,000, and placed him on the payroll at a salary of $1,000 a week. Promo Records specialized in cutouts: old, unsold albums dumped wholesale by record companies into the hands of discount merchandisers. The mob has long liked cutouts because they can be counterfeited easily: You buy a thousand and press several thousand more yourself. Promo was never charged with any crime, but Eboli and Morris kept complaining of government harassment. Customs agents stopped them both in 1971 as they returned from a vacation in Naples. Eboli insisted he was a legitimate businessman. A year later, he was mowed down by gunfire in Brooklyn.


Morris saw nothing untoward in his having run a business with Tommy Eboli. "Yeah, so?" he said. "Here's a guy that wanted to do something legit. He treated it legit. We were investigated every three weeks, we never had a bad record in the place, because if we did, we would have gone to jail together. So? So what?"


Vincent Gigante, the man who allegedly bungled the hit on Frank Costello, was a year younger than Morris Levy. He and Morris were boyhood friends in the Bronx. The FBI saw Gigante as the key mob figure in Morris's background, the man to whom he owed the most allegiance. Just before
Morris was indicted in 1986, the FBI supposedly warned him that Gigante might have him killed out of fear that he would become a government witness —precisely what the feds wanted Morris to do, to no avail.


Gigante stood about six feet tall and, at the time of the Costello hit, weighed close to three hundred pounds. He listed his occupation as tailor. In 1959 he was convicted of heroin trafficking and did five years. This was his last term in jail. After serving his sentence, he rose up the family ranks to caporegime, operating out of a social club on Sullivan Street in New York's Greenwich Village. By the eighties, he was underboss to family head Anthony "Fat Tony" Salerno, a man Morris once described as a "close friend." Unfortunately for Salerno, the FBI had grown sophisticated in the use of room bugs and long-range microphones. Salerno was convicted of being a member of the mob's ruling commission and began serving a hundred-year sentence in 1986. This left Vincent “The Chin” Gigante in charge of the Genovese family.


By 1986 Gigante was one of the few Mafia dons not in prison or under indictment. Lawmen expressed admiration for his craftiness. It seemed Gigante had found the ideal defense: insanity. The boss of one of the nation's most powerful crime families walked around Sullivan Street in bathrobe and slippers. He regularly checked into a mental hospital. When FBI agents served him with a subpoena in his mother's apartment, he retreated into the shower with an umbrella.


But at 2:00 or 3:00 A.M. most days, the Genovese boss became a different man. He would shed his baggy trousers and rumpled windbreaker for finer clothes. His trusted aide, Dominick "Baldy Dom" Canterino, would drive him to a four-story brownstone on East Seventy-seventh Street, the home of The Chin's mistress, Olympia Esposito, and their three illegitimate children. When the neo-Federal brownstone was declared a landmark in 1982, it belonged to Morris Levy, who had bought it for $525,000. He sold the building to Olympia Esposito the following year for a reported $16,000.




"George Goldner," Morris said, tasting the name. Goldner! One of the greatest A&R men in the history of rock and roll. It is impossible to imagine New York rhythm and blues without him. He discovered and produced Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers, Little Anthony and the Imperials, the Flamingos, the Cleftones, the Chantels. . . .


Goldner formed his first label, Tico, in 1948, to record Latin and mambo music, and hit it big with Tito Puente. In 1954, on his Rama label, he recorded "Gee!," a song by the Crows that was one of the first R&B hits to cross over to the white pop charts. He gratefully named his third label Gee, and promptly put out Frankie Lymon's "Why Do Fools Fall in Love?" On subsequent labels, Goldner introduced the Four Seasons and made some of the earliest recordings of the Isley Brothers. In 1964 Goldner formed Red Bird Records with producers Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller, and had hits with the Shangri-Las and the Dixie Cups. He kept starting new labels for a reason. A compulsive gambler, he was forever selling his old labels to Morris Levy for desperately needed cash.


"He liked horses," Morris said. "He always needed money. Any degenerate gambler needs money all the time. It's like being a junkie, isn't it? It's a shame, because George knew music and knew what could be a hit. But if he was worried about the fifth race at Delaware and working the record at the same time, he had a problem. George was a character, and a victim of himself."


Morris met Goldner after inducing Tito Puente, who played at Birdland, to switch from Tico Records to RCA Victor. Levy produced some records for RCA in the fifties. "George came to see me. I never met him before. He says, You took away my number one act, you really hurt my label. I said, Jesus, George, I didn't realize it, I'm sorry. Because I really didn't do it to hurt the man. He says, Well, maybe you can help me. . . ."


Goldner had a plan, and it concerned the Crows' new song, "Gee!" Morris had been putting the jazz acts that played Birdland into package tours and sending them on the road. In so doing, he had set up what he called "the best payola system in the United States." He explained, "Whenever our jazz concerts played a city, I would hire a couple of disc jockeys in the town to emcee the show. They got money for that, which was legitimate. George had this new record by the Crows, and he says, You know a lot of the black jockeys in America. So I helped him get his record played. He says. Let's become partners. With me making the records, and you getting 'em played, we'll do a hell of a business. So we did. And that was the beginning of Gee Records."


One year later, in 1956, Morris created Roulette. It was launched as a rock and roll label but also recorded Birdland stars such as Count Basie and Joe Williams. "I formed Roulette," Morris said, "because George kept telling me I didn't know nothing about the record business, and it aggravated me. And I says. Okay, now I'm gonna form a record company that I'm gonna run. The first records on Roulette were by Buddy Knox and Jimmy Bowen. They hit number one and number eleven within five weeks. [The songs were "Party Doll" and "I'm Sticking with You," respectively.] George got disillusioned and we bought him out." So Roulette picked up Frankie Lymon, the Valentines, the Harptones, the Crows. Goldner came back in the mid-sixties and sold Morris his subsequent labels, Gone and End. Roulette now had the Chantels, the Flamingos, the Imperials.


Around this time, another man central to the history of rock and roll entered Morris Levy's life. His name was Alan Freed. He was a trombone player from Salem, Ohio, who worked as a disc jockey, first in New Castle, Pennsylvania, then Youngstown and Akron. He had a drinking problem and a penchant for trouble. In Akron, Freed left one station for another before his contract expired and was legally barred from broadcasting in the city for a year. He moved to Cleveland and settled at WJW in 1951.


In the early fifties, pop radio was dominated by crooners like Perry Como and Andy Williams. It dawned on Alan Freed that America's youth was disenfranchised by this music because it was hard to dance to. As legend has it, he dropped by a Cleveland record store and became a convert to rhythm and blues. Freed bombarded his growing white audience with the first R&B it had ever heard—LaVern Baker, Red Prysock, Big Al Sears. Freed howled while the records played, beat time on a telephone book, and provided a rapid, raspy commentary: "Anybody who says rock and roll is a passing fad ... has rocks in his head, Dad!" He was so popular that in 1954, WINS in New York acquired Freed and his program, "The Moondog Show."


Freed was promptly sued by a blind New York street musician, Louis "Moondog" Hardin, for infringing his name. Hardin won an injunction, and Freed sulkily agreed to retitle his show. Freed went to P. J. Moriarty's, a Broadway restaurant, and sat down with some of the people who had welcomed him to New York: song-plugger Juggy Gayles, manager Jack Hooke, Morris Levy. "Alan was having a few drinks and bemoaning the fact that he had to come up with a new name," Morris recalled. "To be honest with you, I couldn't say if Alan said it or somebody else said it. But somebody said 'rock and roll.' Everybody just went. Yeah. Rock and roll." The WINS program became "Alan Freed's Rock and Roll Show," and a musical form acquired a name.


Freed set up shop in the Brill Building on Broadway. He had begun to host rock and roll concerts, a lucrative endeavor, and who was better at booking concert halls than Morris? "At that time, I used to take the Birdland stars on the road," Morris said. "So he came to me, Alan, and says, I want you to be my manager.*[* More likely, according to people who knew Freed, Morris encouraged the DJ's original manager, Lew Platt, to make himself scarce].
I said, My deal is fifty-fifty. He says fine. About five days later, the manager of WINS says, Moishe, we have a problem. Alan Freed's been in town a week now, and he's already given away a hundred and twenty percent of himself! He had a lot of talent, but he was also a little nuts."


Morris remained Freed's manager nevertheless. "The first show I did with Alan Freed was two nights at the St. Nicholas Arena. Which I think at that time held seven, eight thousand people. He made four announcements, six weeks before the dance, and $38,000 came in the mail. I says, Oh my God. This is crazy. Well, it was two of the biggest dances ever held. The ceiling was actually dripping from the moisture. It was raining inside the St. Nicholas Arena. I'm not exaggerating."


Encouraged, Morris booked the Brooklyn Paramount, a large movie house with a stage. Under the standard arrangement, the Paramount kept half the proceeds over $50,000 but guaranteed $15,000 for the promoters. Morris had other ideas. He waived the guarantee in return for an escalating percentage of the box office that would reach 90 percent at the $60,000 mark. No Paramount show had ever grossed near that amount, so the terms were granted.


"Alan stopped talking to me, because people had steamed him up that I sold him down the river by not taking a guarantee. As a matter of fact, one big agent bet me a case of Chivas that we're gonna get killed. Well, we opened up the first day, and there's lines in the streets, and the pressure's so great at the door that we start to cut out the movie. Alan and I pass each other in the hallway. I says, How's it goin', Alan? He makes a face. I says. Hey, Alan, let me ask you a question. You wanna sell your end now for twenty thousand? He says, What do you mean? We're making money? I says, Alan. And I told him what we're gonna make for the week. And he started talking to me again."


When Morris formed Roulette Records, he gave Freed 25 percent of the stock. Freed promptly sold his shares to "some wiseguys from around town," Morris said, bending his nose with his index finger to signify that the men were hoods. Who were they? "That's none of your business. And I got hold of Alan, and I said, Gimme back my fucking stock. Here's your contract with the shows, but we're not partners no more."


The payola scandal of 1960 destroyed Freed's life. He was indicted on May 19, along with seven others, and charged with taking bribes to play records. Freed admitted he accepted a total of $2,500, but said the money was a token of gratitude and did not affect airplay. He forgot to mention that the Chess brothers of Chicago let him stick his name on Chuck Berry's first hit, "Maybellene," and that he stood to gain by playing it often. Freed paid a small fine, but his career was over. By 1965 he had drunk himself to death.


"Bullshit charges," said Morris, reflecting on the scandal. "Freed got indicted because Freed stuck himself out in front. I had stopped talking to Freed because we'd had an argument for a few months. But when he got in trouble, he did call me. And I told him, I'll help you. But do me a favor. Go home and don't talk to nobody. And before the day was over, I was walking down the street, and the New York Post was sitting on the stand, and there's this big interview with Alan Freed. He had already talked to Earl Wilson, the columnist. And I called and said, What the fuck did you do? Did you see the size of the type? The type was the same size when World War II ended."


Payola was not illegal, in fact, until after the scandal. Commercial bribery was a crime in New York, though, and that statute proved Freed's undoing. The government tried to nail Roulette on the same charges but had no luck.
"Oh, yeah, they tried to break my balls with everything," Morris said. "They put their special agents in New York, they harassed the shit out of me. The government came in and seized our books. I went before the grand jury, and they were hot, because on my books there was a loan to Alan Freed of $20,000. And the D.A. wanted to show it was for payola.


"Now, Alan had once come to me, he wanted $20,000 that he needed for taxes. And I gave it to him from Roulette, it was no big deal. And at the end of the year, I said to my comptroller. Take that off the books, we're never going to get it back anyway. And then Alan and I had an argument in February. So I said to my comptroller, Put it back on the books, fuck him, I'm going to make him pay it. Then, about four months later, I said, Ah, take it off, fuck him. And it's really on the general ledger just like that, about five times, on and off and on and off.


"So the D.A. makes a statement, see, this shows you how payola works, this $20,000. So he's questioning me. And I says no, it's not payola. I got mad, I got glad, I got mad, I got glad. He says no, it's because he played your record. I said, Not so. He played my records anyway. So when he got all through, he starts to make a speech. This will show the people of the grand jury what kind of money and how rampant it is. So he said, You're excused. And I says to him, I got something to say. He said, You're excused. So one of the jurors said. Let him talk. So what is it? I said, You know, we just had a laugh here about $20,000—which was a lot of money then—and we just had some fun. But you didn't take into account that Alan and I are partners in the rock and roll shows, and we make $250,000 a year each on that. So me giving him twenty or him giving me twenty is really no big deal. Well, he got so mad he said, You . . . can . . . leave . . . now!"


The government tried to get Morris to sign a consent decree, admitting he had done wrong in giving payola. He refused. "People said I was an idiot, and I had plenty of grief because of that," Levy said. "But I liked myself better for not signing it."

To be continued in Part 2.

Wednesday, January 23, 2019

Lou Levy - An Interview with Steve Voce [From the Archives with Additions]

© -  Steven A. Cerra - copyright protected; all rights reserved.

The following interview appeared in Vol. 35, 1982 of Jazz Journal International under the title of “Lou Levy Talks to Steve Voce” and Steve had kindly consented to allow its posting to these pages. Steve is a British journalist and music critic who has been broadcasting on the BBC for more than 50 years and contributing regularly to The Independent and to Jazz Journal for over 60 years.

Based in the UK, Steve uses English spelling.
© -  Steve Voce/JazzJournal - used with the author’s permission; copyright protected; all rights reserved.

“The Stan Getz Quartet that took the honours at last year's Nice festival was full of both distinction and fine distinctions. Marc Johnson, its eloquent bassist, said of pianist Lou Levy "he is a genius with melody, and his main concern is to present the qualities of the melody to the audience, whilst I'm more concerned to use the melody as a basis for improvisation."
A quiet and modest man, Levy is content to take a subordinate role away from the limelight, preferring to support rather than lead, but with the Getz quartet Stan has subtly engineered a setting which makes Lou a prime mover and with this band Levy is playing with an authority that has probably not been apparent before.
"Stan and I have been together on and off with long periods of being apart, for more than 30 years, going right back to the time with Woody Herman in the forties. Off the stand we've been the closest friends for many years, so it's natural that we have a musical rapport. We understand each other's playing, agree on the format of tunes, on the length — just about everything musically. You'll notice with Stan that whenever anyone else is playing he listens. That's so rare in most of the bands I've worked with. Things will happen on the stand when a guy's soloing — the other musicians will talk to each other, maybe even go to the bar for a drink — I won't put up with that. I'll either tell them off right on the band stand or I'll just get up and walk. To me that's really an insult to the music, and also the audience doesn't go for it either. Those are usually the guys that don't play the best.
Stan always did play great, but now better than ever. I can feel him opening up from day to day, from set to set, from tune to tune. When you get guys like this who play so well, it's not easy to get them to play their best. It takes a while for every-body to really open up, and it's starting to happen now, on this festival especially.
Although we go back a quarter of a century in the quartet setting, this is new — has to be, because of our experiences in that time. Stan came from a totally different kind of band that he's had for some years, so his outlook is quite fresh. I brought in all the music, and I think that the standards we're using are as good material as you can find. I think it's assuming an awful lot when you come. across bands that use nothing but originals. All originals are not necessarily good. Once in a while you do come up with a good one, but a lot of the time it's ego trip stuff. Particularly when there are Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, the Gershwins, Harold Arlen, Charlie Parker and Thelonious Monk! There's so much great material and you can do one tune in so many different ways. You got a lot of opportunity out there. And then if you write a great original, that's fine.
Stan's earlier groups used electric keyboards and electric bass, and oddly enough it's fresh to get back to acoustic instruments. Naturally I'm pleased. I don't mind playing an electric instrument once in a while, but I think it totally cancels out any-one's identity. You have no touch control, no personal contact with the thing other than your fingers are pushing down the keys and getting electrical impulses out of it. The only way you can possibly have any identity on an electric instrument is the way Chick Corea does where the composition is the identity. They have, or have had their place, but I see them going very fast, I really do. We used to use a celeste on dates with Frank Sinatra or Peggy Lee, but just as a tender thing on the verse of a ballad. It's okay, but it should be short and sweet.
Peggy? I think I accompanied Peggy Lee half of my life. It really was over a period of 18 years off and on. I left her for three years to go with Ella Fitzgerald, a year or so with Nancy Wilson — it was back and forth. But over the 18 years it was well over half of them, and it was a great lesson in music, showmanship and stage presentation. She's a marvellous interpreter of songs and I learned a lot about the other side of a song, the lyrics as opposed to the purely musical part. Lyrics play a very important part in my playing. I always follow the lyrics when I'm playing and always think of the melody. No matter how far into improvising I am the lyric is going through my head. That makes a great difference to how you play. As you know, Lester Young was a great believer in lyrics, and Bill Evans sounded like he knew lyrics to a great degree. All the good players, Miles Davis and Charlie Parker made a point of knowing lyrics and it shows in their playing.
I teach a class in accompanying at the Dick Grove Music Workshop in Los Angeles and I stress that the strongest point is to know the melody, but really know the lyrics as well. The kids are really getting it and after six or seven weeks I see how it affects their playing. They play less, but they play deeper. It's nice. I've been doing those classes for some months now. It's a great school. Dick Grove is a very fine arranger who started it and he brings in lots of fine tutors like Mancini and Nelson Riddle for film writing, and he brings in great musicians like Dave Grusin, Herbie Ellis, Monty Budwig. He asked me to teach an accompanying class because I've done so much of it that they figured I'd be able to get the point across. And that's strictly what I'm doing now. I might branch out a little bit, but I think that accompanying is vitally important for all jazz players to know about and not just for vocalists. When I accompany Stan Getz I'm accompanying a voice, a very fine voice, and it's just as important to know what to do for a guy with a horn in his mouth as it is for somebody who opens his mouth and sings lyrics.
At the school the students are prepared for about six months to make sure they understand all the chord symbols and things that we usually encounter when accompanying. You know, they throw a chord sheet at us — it's not written out like a classical piano part usually, it's just chord symbols. So what they do is they get the students that do play the piano but may not have much knowledge of harmony, so they make sure, and then at the end of the six months they hand them over to me and I don't have to worry about the language of chords. I don't have to struggle with that and so we can go straight ahead into the next phase, which is interpretation.



You ask whether I can anticipate what someone like Stan or Ella is going to do next. Well that's a bit like the question of how do you teach improvising? It's instinctive and it happens instantaneously. There are logical paths to follow which you can anticipate, and then sometimes when you hear something different you adjust along that way very fast. Luckily it comes very naturally to me. I've heard a lot of great piano players who play better than me, but who can't accompany, and it always makes me wonder. A guy can play fantastically, but maybe he's not interested, never been interested in accompanying, and so it doesn't work, he can't do it.
My first accompanying job was for Sarah Vaughan in 1947. It was in Chicago and I'm not sure if I'd even left high school. She'd just made the record Mean to Me with Charlie Parker and hadn't become popular yet. We worked in Roger's Park in Chicago, which happened to be in my neighbourhood, and she used to pick me up from home each night and then bring me back again after the job. She taught me so much, because she plays piano, and it was from her I first learned about accompaniment. Then I worked a couple of weeks with June Christy in Milwaukee, but the first big accompanying job I had, other than playing for Mary Ann McCall with Woody's band was the job with Peggy when I moved to California in 1955. Max Bennett and Larry Bunker who were with her got me the job when Marty Paich left.
Pretty much around the same time I worked with Sarah I had my first full-time professional gig. Georgie Auld had a little band that included Red Rodney, Serge Chaloff, Curley Russell and the late Tiny Kahn on drums. I met Tiny in Chicago when they came to work there and they had George Wallington on piano. We had some local jam sessions and Tiny heard me play and I guess he thought 'well, for a local kid he doesn't play too bad.' All of a sudden George Wallington got sick and they needed a piano player immediately, so Tiny suggested to Georgie 'let's try the kid'. It didn't turn out too badly, they liked me, and every night Tiny would teach me things. He was my real mentor. He was the biggest influence on me in the music business. He showed me what to listen to — other than Charlie Parker, everyone knew about Parker. But Tiny was fantastic. You never expect a drummer to be a teacher, no insult to drummers, but he knew the keyboard, he knew the harmony, he was just a total natural, the most beautiful musician you could ever want to be. He was a wonderful arranger, but unfortunately he died too young to leave a lot of music, but he left his impression on every-one. In fact his influence is still there.
Tiny taught me some things about arranging, but I'm not really that big an arranger. I'm an accompanist, pianist and jazz player. I wish I could arrange, but if I could my standard would be too high because t have friends like Johnny Mandel (who I think is the epitome of arranging), Al Cohn and Nelson Riddle. I worked with all these guys, and they're so great that I'm way behind them in arranging, so I'll stick to what I do.
Ira Sullivan and I grew up together in Chicago. A lot of guys would come through and I'd play with them, do local jobs, Minneapolis and so on. The first thing that took me out of town was when Tiny Kahn got me the job to go to Europe on Chubby Jackson's Fifth Dimensional Jazz Group. We went to Sweden in 1947 and Sweden had never really had a band like that up to that time, so it was a great trip. We had Denzil Best on drums, Frank Socolow on tenor plus Conte Candoli and Terry Gibbs, and I met all these guys for the first time. When we got back we worked a little around Washington DC. Chubby went back with Woody, and a month or two later he got me in Woody's band. It was the Four Brothers band, of course, and there I met Stan Getz and Al Cohn, and that was the start of the whole ball of wax. I replaced Ralph Burns, but Ralph didn't leave the band, he stayed on the road with us but strictly as an arranger. He wanted time to write. I stayed with that band for two years until it broke up, and then I went on the road with a little band of Louis Bellson's, along with Charlie Shavers and Terry Gibbs. Then that whole little band joined Tommy Dorsey's band and I spent about three months with him. He was a great bandleader and I respected him very much, although musically it wasn't my cup of tea. I've never been fired by anybody but Tommy Dorsey, but what he said to me was classic: `Kid, you play real good, but not for my band.' I thought that was about as honest as you could get. I'm not offended when someone says you played rotten or you did something wrong, because constructive criticism is the best thing for anyone.
Tommy was a wonderful trombone player as well as a great bandleader, and it's always a lesson to see how someone handles a band, handles men. He had it all together. At first glance Tommy was stricter than Woody, but Woody commands a lot of respect. It's a quieter thing. He just stands there, he doesn't say too much. He'll look and listen and let the guys do their craziness off the band stand, but on the stand the guys always seem to respect him, and he's still a great leader after more than 40 years.
Bill Harris came back into the Herd after I joined, but I'd worked with him before in a three-trombone band with Shelly Manne on drums. I worked often with Shelly in the late forties and still play with him now. In the Herd I was very heavily influenced by Al Cohn, because I'd never heard anyone play that way. Al is really a gem, as Stan Getz will tell you. I'm pretty sure that, along with Zoot, Al is his favourite player. Those two guys! The band was so vital and sounded so clean, and it had so much energy. I've heard bands with as much energy, but I've never heard one with so much polish to go with it and still sound natural.
There was a lot of different music came into the band, with charts by Jimmy Giuffre, Shorty Rogers, a couple of real bebop arrangements by Gil Fuller and all the Ralph Burns arrangements, which go anywhere from jazz to semi-classical but always very original. I don't remember off the top of my head every chart that came in, but there were a hell of a lot. Gil arranged Bud Powell's Tempus Fugit for the band, and we're playing pretty much the same routine on that number now with Stan's quartet. We didn't play Gil's charts that often because I think Woody felt that they weren't quite in the style that he was used to. One arrangement that came into the band that we used to play a lot was Johnny Mandel's Not Really The Blues. Sometimes Woody would leave the stand for the last set in a ballroom and boy, as soon as he left we'd wail into that one and maybe again at the end of the set. We recorded a long version of it for Capitol, but unfortunately they cut it down to get it onto the 78 record length, which was still going at the time. It was a classic arrangement, like another that Johnny wrote at that time on What's New? as a Terry Gibbs feature. But I'm totally mad about anything that Johnny Mandel writes, because he's one of my idols, and I don't have too many idols.
I was never a New Yorker, although when I came back from Europe with Chubby I spent time living at his house and working out on Long Island, but I never had a Local 802 card. After I left Tommy Dorsey I went with a little band Bill Harris and Flip Philips had. While I was with the band I got married to a girl from Minneapolis. Her family had a business publishing medical journals and her father suggested that I should join the business. It was a very successful one, so I left the music business for three years and moved to Minneapolis. I kept in touch, though, played around the town, played with Conte and guys who came through. But the marriage didn't work out and after four years we split up so naturally I wasn't going to stay in the family business. I came back to music in Chicago, playing solo piano for the wonderful man that ran the Blue Note, the late Frank Holzfeind. I was still pretty young, and I went back with my folks and stayed there awhile, saved some money. I'd work opposite all the bands that came through to the Blue Note — Woody, Shorty Rogers and the Giants, and one day Shorty suggested that I moved out to California and said he'd give me his piano work. So I did, and I worked a lot with him and made quite a few of the Giants albums. Then he gave me my first movie call, for `The Man With The Golden Arm', and the next year the job with Peggy came up.
The only times I worked in the studios were when Shorty called me. They have guys in that job that can do anything, play anything at sight. I never was that kind of player. They'd call me if it was a jazz type of job, like `The Golden Arm' thing where we had two piano players — Ray Turner, who could do absolutely anything off the paper, and me, who could do very little off the paper, but I could make up something, and so that much studio work I did! Through the people I worked with and was friendly with like Shorty, Nelson Riddle and Billy May, who would do a movie score occasionally, I got to do some movie work, but I was never a movie studio musician.
On the other hand, I did a lot of record studio dates. 1 recorded with Nat Cole, and played piano through a whole album of his `Wild Is Love'. It was a good album, but then everything he did was fantastic. I knew him very well, and he was one of my all-time favourite piano players. When I was with Woody he did a tour with us with his trio, and I spent all my time with him and would sit and listen to him for hours. He got married at that time and his wife was with him on the tour, and we'd all go shopping together. Just being around him was a real pleasure, but he was a magnificent player in such a low-keyed way. Then when he got his own TV show in Los Angeles I appeared on it in the orchestra quite often. He was a great man, a perfect musician and a beautiful guy.
In the earlier days the first of my favourites was Al Haig, because he was on most of the records that I heard first. I played with Charlie Parker when I was very young. The first time I sat in with him he called me over afterwards and he said 'Kid, you ever heard Bud Powell?' I said that I'd heard about him, and Charlie blew a kiss to the heavens and said `You go check him out.' And he was so right!



If I sort of double back I can give you the order of my favourite piano players. Before those guys I heard records of Teddy Wilson with Benny Goodman, but I would say that my favourite players in order would be Fats Waller, Art Tatum, Nat Cole, Al Haig, Bud Powell and of course Bill Evans, probably the biggest influence of the last ten years on piano players. I like Chick Corea very much. He brought something startling into jazz. I don't know if he plays anything that's so much new. He doesn't play memorable, everlasting things like Lester Young played on the tenor — little phrases you could make songs out of. It's not so much that, it's just something sparkling and electrifying. I love the first record I heard of his, with Roy Haynes and Miroslav Vitous, a trio record from 1969. That floored me. I think a lot of people don't realise how brilliant Fats Waller really was. He was like Nat Cole to me but maybe even more facile on the piano. He had this independent voice, and three things going at once — he was great to watch, great to listen to and he wrote wonderful songs.

If Nat Cole was missing anything it was that he was not a composer himself, otherwise he'd be a duplicate. Art Tatum still amazes me, and he still amazes anyone who knows anything about the piano. He did it all, and he was exquisite in so many ways. Harmonically he was so complex and logical at the same time, and his technique was so ridiculous. He was just something that came along and nobody can explain it and it will never be equalled. He's an influence on me harmonically, but I can't do it technically! Bud Powell is much more of an element in my playing as far as single line and melodic lines are concerned. In fact J S Bach is a bigger influence on me than Art Tatum as far as that's concerned. Nat had a wonderful loose way of playing that Tatum sometimes showed, as indeed Fats Waller. Two of my other favourites of course are Tommy Flanagan and Hank Jones.
I'm an admirer of Oscar Peterson. It's a touchy subject to say something critical, but if you want me to be really honest, I've always liked Oscar least for the creative part of his playing. Maybe that sounds harsh, and I hope Oscar doesn't take it the wrong way, but I look at Oscar as being strong in all other departments. Here's a sort of left-handed thing: Thelonious Monk, who sounds as if he's playing with his knuckles, is very intensely creative at times. He plays a lot of memorable things. I worked opposite Oscar a lot when I was with Ella, and he's just brilliant, amazing, you know — beautiful touch, brilliant dynamics and that time feel he has! He's a giant, but he's not an influence on me.
I worked for Sinatra when his piano player had a bad accident. I'd do concerts and benefits with him, and I did some record dates with him — it's inconsequential, but I played piano on I Did It My Way. I've played a lot of private parties at his house and I played solo a lot on those occasions. I remember one time I played at a dinner party he gave for about ten people. He had Ronald and Nancy Reagan, Fred Astaire, Jack Benny and his wife, James Stewart and Cary Grant. I spent a lot of time around Jack Benny because my ex-wife was hairdresser for Mary Benny, and I used to go over to their home with her. Jack would be in his robe, walking round the pool playing the violin, and I used to talk to him a lot. He was a fantastic guy as you know, funny in any language.
We always looked forward to Frank singing at the parties, because he sings so great when it's informal. He'd come over to me and say `What'll we do?' and I'd say All Of Me and he'd just start right in, not tell me the key or anything, and he was wonderful. It's a thrill to play for him.
As an all-round singer I like Ella, but Peggy's interpretation of a song is unbeatable. She lives that thing. She actually cries — I've seen tears many times. Lena Horne? Probably I was never more impressed with all-round stage presence than when I worked with Lena. When I first got a call from her she had just moved to a place about 70 miles away from where I live in Studio City, California. So I drove up there, and met her out in the garden — she was gracious and beautiful in her blue jeans. She took me into the house, sat me down at the piano, put some music in front of me and said `okay, go ahead and play.' Then she'd put more music in front of me, and each time she'd say`that's right', and that's all the rehearsal we ever had. Then we went to Las Vegas where we were working and she listened to the band, still didn't sing, and she said `That's right'. Then when she hit the stage at the show that night my hair stood on end. I couldn't believe what I was hearing and seeing. I actually got goosebumps. I was conducting and trying to look round at her, and it paralysed me for a minute. I didn't blow the cues, but what a revelation! There's nothing in the world like Lena Horne on stage. I went to see her one-woman show in New York just recently and I just sat open-mouthed and watched her. Boy, it's even better from out front! I don't think there'll ever be anything like Lena Horne again. I don't think there could be.
Ella is probably the most wonderful natural person you could ever want to work with. There's no pretence about her. She's really beautiful, and as far as her singing goes, no one can swing like her, no one can sing more in tune than her, and nobody knows more tunes than she does. I learned a lot of new songs from her. I had to learn verses to things like I Got Rhythm. I didn't even know there was a verse to I Got Rhythm. Most of the material I play now, I learned the majority of it from working with Ella. We'd go out there and do 40 tunes. And then the next night do 40 different tunes. She'd give you a list of numbers at the beginning of a concert and by the second tune you're already off the list! She'll turn around on the spot and give you something different or, for example, if there's a kid in the audience she'll sing Three Little Pigs or nursery rhymes, Jingle Bells if it's Christmas time — you never knew what was going to happen. But it was always in tune and it always swung. I think my favourite album I ever made with any singer is the Ella Fitzgerald Gershwin — the five records in the box of Nelson Riddle's arrangements. That was a fantastic music lesson for me. The different ways that they did the songs — Lady Be Good so slow and beautiful. That was a great influence on me, and as a result I do a lot of fast ones slow now. It was like going to school.
With Peggy we rehearsed everything down to the footwork and the lights. But that's alright, too, it works out fine. I did it night after night, the same thing, and it never got boring. There was always room for creating and you still had the feeling conducting the orchestra that you were inspired. She was quite an inspirationalist — a great entertainer and a great musician.
I worked a lot in jazz clubs in Los Angeles but these days a lot of my work is out of the city. Recently I've been doing tours with Zoot and Benny Goodman as well as with Stan. A couple of times a year I have a duo gig at a place in New York called The Knickerbocker, which I love, so I'm actually going out of town a lot.
There are lots of great jazz musicians in LA, but unfortunately jazz is not as important there as it should be.
Stan lives in San Francisco, a place I love, and it's only 55 minutes by plane from LA. As long as Stan wants me, I'm sure I'll be around. I've never had the ambition so far of being Oscar Peterson and conquering the world. I like what I'm doing and I like playing with another instrument as in the quartet. I do take trio jobs and I make trio albums, of course, and they're fine. But I've always been an accompanist and I don't see me changing. I don't feel there's anything that relegates it to a lower station in life at all, especially if you get to play with the kind of people I'm playing with. Working with Ella is a pure jazz job, like being with Stan, and then I love to work with Al Cohn because he's such a great player. There are differences between Al and Stan when you play for them. You don't have the variety of material with Al. Mainly it's just a question of listening to Al and playing simpler things. The standards Stan uses are more challenging, and I enjoy those. He's a great teacher, too. We agree on most things, but there's lots of little things that we pick up on the way, like the format of the tune, that I mentioned earlier. He plays short solos — sometimes he'll play the first chorus on a ballad and let me play the second chorus and finish the number without him. I never worked with anyone else who did that before, but it makes a lot of sense — why go any farther? You've done two choruses of the ballad: it's lovely, so why spin it out? Stan knows just where to put the bass solo, the drums, you know. I don't like a guy who stands up there and plays chorus after chorus and if it doesn't work out tries another chorus. That's very boring. The good guys make their statements and get out fast.
I like to think there is fire in my playing as you suggest, but I hope it's the kind of fire that Bud Powell had. I like dynamics and I don't put the fire in there on purpose, and it's not the kind of bombastic fire that you get with McCoy Tyner. If the tune is Johnny Mandel's Time For Love, well naturally it's going to be tender and beautiful, but if it's The Night Has A Thousand Eyes, that's fun because you can just throw caution to the winds and sort of throw your hands at the piano and maybe punch it once in a while. It can take it, it's a darned strong instrument really.
We found we had too many endings that sounded the same, so the other day we sat down and said let's do this on the end of this and that on the end of that and sorted it out between us. I'm very proud of this quartet. That little guy Marc Johnson, young compared to me, every day I marvel at him. And Victor Lewis with that touch of his is one of the all-time best drummers I know. Stan's got everything you could want. I call him the Jascha Heifetz of the saxophone. Flawless. I'm not a saxophone player, but people who are that I talk to tell me that what he does nobody else can do. Technically some of the stuff he does is so hard that I can't describe it because I'm a piano player. We made that Concord album with Monte Budwig in for Marc when we first got together in our first week, and naturally we all feel that the quartet's better now, but the album's good. Incidentally, we use Marc when we're on the East Coast and Monte when we're in California.
If we're winding up now, I'd like to talk about the songs again. I see marvellous standards coming back into use again, and with them sane-ness and good taste are coming back, too. All that ego that was so apparent with some of the younger musicians is beginning to disappear, too, and the good is rising to the surface again. I'm not putting down everybody that's young and wants to play all their own tunes, but they've got to learn to do something out there besides them, you know. It's working out well for me, too. The music's come back. Thank God!"”